11 replies to this topic

[Abbaddabba]

50 man, 50 dollar tournament. Top 5 pay and there are 6 remaining. Im extremely short stacked with 2 big blinds left. Im second to act (next to UTG), and i have K/8. Clearly it's better than an average hand (hence making it pushable if i was UTG). Is it better than the optimum of three random hands, suggesting that i should fold? Or rather, is it probable that of two remaining hands, will at least one be better?The blinds would have been up next hand, ensuring that i would not be able to survive the big and small blind (the two would have _just_ taken up my entire stack), so sitting and waiting for someone else to bust out wasnt an option.

[Vade]

This is always a tough situationThere's 3 hands left that you can get, I don't see chip stacks for everyone else...curious about the possibility of someone else bustingIf everyone else can survive at least 2 or 3 rounds of blinds, you have to push...If not, well, K8 you might find a better hand you might notI'd say fold if there's another short stack (even if they have a bit more then you)

[Abbaddabba]

The next closest stack had roughly 3 times my stack and was reluctant to get into a pot before i busted out. I had two more hands before the big blind before i would be forced into play, and by that time, the big blinds would have risen such that it would take up 2/3rds of my stack. I essentially have two random hands following the king/8 offsuit, unless i fold my big blind to a raise when i have 2/3rds of my stack in preflop. Considering how unlikely it is that someone else will bust out before me even if i _do_ technically survive the next round in the small blind, and considering that im getting paid 6/1 for the additional amount i have to put in to call if even one person plays me, i am virtually obligated to play out the BB hand no matter what i have. So i have two random hands. On average, will the optimum of two random hands beat King/8 offsuit, is my question. Queen/7 is the conventionally assumed "average" hand, i believe. For two, however, it's clearly higher. How much higher is the question, since it only has to be stronger than K/8 to warrant a fold on my part in that situation.For both situations i have zero fold equity, it should be noted. One of the blinds will call me with complete shit if i push, since they'd be getting paid in the region of 4:1 for the BB and 3.5:1 for the SB (though the SB has to risk playing against the BB, so that seems less likely).

[RISEorFall]

I say you push, it's unlikely you'd get king high again in the next 2 hands. There is always a chance you can make a better hand but K8 is probably the best you'll see. I think you should've actually pushed earlier when you had some fold equity to try and steal blinds at the least, and if you get called hope to have 2 live cards.

[Rocketwadster]

This scenario seems to happen to me a lot. I hate coming in under the bubble, and every time we get dowwn to it I tighten up way too much, hoping for either a monster or waiting for someone else to get busted. Do naturally, I get "blinded to death" way more than I like. That being said, I would not play king 8 offsuit in the position you indicated :naughty: , but would play king 8 suited. :dance:

[MasterLJ]

I'd push and try to get lucky.Let's say someone calls with A7, it's like 40/60. Given your position and that you aren't going to last much longer, the blinds are looking great and K8 is not a bad hand if you are super-short stacked.

[RISEorFall]

Rocketwadster said:

I would not play king 8 offsuit in the position you indicated :naughty: , but would play king 8 suited. :dance:

Being suited only gives you like a 3% advantage over unsuited. If you don't push here, why not? You have at most 2 more hands...it's either take the 3% here or take a bigger percentage loss on the next 2 hands when the odds of you getting a monster are much smaller. Being unsuited or suited should not be a factor here at all...you're very very short on chips...beggars can't be chosers.

[Rocketwadster]

RISEorFall said:

Rocketwadster said:

I would not play king 8 offsuit in the position you indicated :naughty: , but would play king 8 suited. :dance:

Being suited only gives you like a 3% advantage over unsuited. If you don't push here, why not? You have at most 2 more hands...it's either take the 3% here or take a bigger percentage loss on the next 2 hands when the odds of you getting a monster are much smaller. Being unsuited or suited should not be a factor here at all...you're very very short on chips...beggars can't be chosers.

are you sure it is only a 3% improvement between suited and unsuited vs any hand? That seems awfully low when you consider how much nicer it looks...lolI would NOT play K 8 offsuit in that position. Maybe I'm too tight, but I would rather take my chances on the next hand or two. Each and every time I do decide to make a stand with a similar hand to K 8 offsuit, it has lost. :cry:

[JimmyWellington]

The big thing with this question for me is: How did you get down to 2BB? Once you get down in that position, as you said, you have NO fold equity. Also, if you push now, you'll still be very short stacked unless you get 3-4 people to call and then beat all of them - the first part is likely, the second is not. Once I get down to about 7-8 BB, I'm looking to push. In this case, your bet would be big enough where if you double up, it means something. You'd probably be up against only one caller, as opposed to this situation, in which you'd more likely be up against 2-3 callers. But yeah, I would push in your situation. I'd rather have the cards be closer in rank, or suited, to increase the ways you can win, but you gotta deal with what you got.

[Scott3705]

I ran the suited vs. non suited through an odds calculator and the suited gives you about 4% preflop. (For me, I always thought having suited cards real value come after the flop if 2 of your suit comes.) You definately have to push here. I don't know the odds, just experience tells me that is probably the best looking hand you'll get. Plus the next closest guy to you isn't playing any pots. So even if you wait three hands until you're on your last BB and you double up, you're still stacked then you are now and #5 can still wait you out fairly comfortably if that's his goal. Best case scenario here is you catch everyone without a hand and you pick up the blinds. Maybe you get called by A 9 or something and you're a 2to 1 dog. But hey, it's gotta be done. I really can't conceivably justify not pushing here.

[Abbaddabba]

Quote

The big thing with this question for me is: How did you get down to 2BB? Once you get down in that position, as you said, you have NO fold equity.

Aggressive play from other players when i had a relatively larger stack (and was in the blinds) and had absolutely nothing. K/8 was my third best hand in 3 full rounds of blinds, save for pocket 3's (my only pockets at the final table) which was up against 3 players (before i acted) who were in the hand enough to call for pot odds alone.I was called by ace rags and lost. Im not really asking for advice from people over whether or not to push. I know the answer. I want to know if there's any site (or formula) to calculate the optimum strength of 2 random hands, given the assumption of a HU situation.