19 replies to this topic

[CobaltBlue]

Bodog 50k Guaranteed NLHE MTT

UTG T37k
Button T49k
Cobalt T28k

Blinds 600/1200, Ante 125
82 players left, 63 pay
Avg. Stack T23k

Cobalt is SB w/ Q Q . I've been playing pretty TAG, but I haven't been at the table long. UTG has played one hand of note several hands ago when he was at T21k in MP and called an EP-push for 7k w/ 99. He also got the BB to come along and flopped a set, so that's where he got most of his chips. Button seems a little loose but competent.

Pre-flop:
UTG raises to T3.6k, 5 folds, Button calls, Cobalt ?

[pokerfan1080]

QQ is likely good preflop, however, I tend to call in this spot because you are out of position with an UTG raise, button call and the BB yet to act. You could push to take away a tough decision later on but that leaves you with no way to get away from a bad flop. Any decent re-raise will pretty much commit you so I don't see that as an option, it's either push or call. I prefer a call, but I'm a weak-tight noob.

I would lead any flop with a 1/3-1/2 pot bet, higher if the flop looks safe, and fold to a re-raised flop that didn't look ok for Q's.

You don't mention anything about the BB which makes me think you pushed here. I don't like to put my tourney life on the line with a coin flip unless it's necessary. Your M is 9.5, no need to push in this spot, imo. A call and a 1/3-1/2 pot bet on the flop will leave you with an M of about 7 which is still playable.

[mk]

i like a call pre and getting aggressive on an all-unders flop.

[meservery]

Push. I'd rather take the chance of running into the KK, AA; than playing this hand possibly 4 handed out of position and near the bubble. I would think if you call the BB would be calling too.

[cubbybri]

Call or push. I like push for the go for the win type move. Still quarter of the field to drop before ITM and we are just over average. The raise I think is a decent hand as a bigger stack in behind. The button could have a lot of hands as a bigger stack that may be looking to bully. Without much info I'd put button AT-AK and 77-99 minimum. UTG without only the called push with 99 hand, I give 66+ AQ+ possibly AJ or AT.
If you just call, you are likely to have BB come in as well.

What flop can you possibly like in this scenario? I personally like the push line here. If you call, I personally would play the hand for set value only unless you truly feel you have best hand on flop. With 4 hands in you are likely to have somone hit something hard on the flop. UTG with high cards, button with mid pairs and BB could play just better than any 2 if he is loose and likes implied odds.


So what happens on flop that comes J87 or T97 or 987 with two suited and you get played back at when you bet flop. You'll be pushing anyway. I say make your decision easy and push pre-flop or else call and play for the SET ONLY.

[hblask]

Push. I'd rather take the chance of running into the KK, AA; than playing this hand possibly 4 handed out of position and near the bubble. I would think if you call the BB would be calling too.

I vote for this one. There are only two hands (AA, KK) you are worried about heads up, lots of hands you are worried
about 3 or 4-handed (the flop is bound to hit *someone*).

[Eight_Tabler]

I like pushing preflop best... This makes things easy, and there are plenty of chips to take down as is. The way I see it, if he has KK or AA then it's a cooler.

That said, I don't hate calling preflop either. The good thing about just calling preflop is that if the flop comes rags (ex. 256, 337, etc.), you might get some action from medium pairs (88, 99, TT, JJ) that you probably wouldn't have otherwise. I mean, these hands could just fold if you push preflop. The bad thing about just calling preflop is you give inferior hands a chance to outflop you, when they would have folded if you just pushed. I think putting your chips in preflop is the best line, unless you have an extremely strong tell on the UTG raiser that he is strong, and probably has you beat.

[ChrisRichey]

If my math is correct, there is 9k in the pot when the action gets to you, which is almost 1/3 of your stack. QQ is a tough hand to play OOP against two or possibly three villains. I push pf.

[Acid_Knight]

Including preflop action, your SB, the BB and the antes, there is 10,125 chips in the pot. That represents about 35% of your stack, which is not bad value for any hand.

If you flat call preflop, you've given hands like AJ and KQ and 55 a chance to beat you when they would have folded preflop. You have also given the preflop raiser a chance to move you off of your hand if the flops comes down K82 rainbow and he c-bets it with AQ or TT.

Pushing is the right move here. There is already a good number of chips in the pot, and as you suggested, the UTG player might still call with a hand like AQ or TT, which will put you in excellent shape. QQ can see a lot of bad flops and you don't want to get moved off of your hand if it is best. Push and hope for the best.

[CobaltBlue]

So is it the consensus that with button's flat call that this moves towards a shove? If he's out, does it become closer?

[cubbybri]

I still think push is best to win outright or push BB out. UTG's only hand shown does not give me too much info, just the possibility he doesn't mind racing unless he knew more about the opponenet and said hand then we do.

Again I don't like the call myself but can see doing it.

I would just restate whether 3 or 4 handed, if I call this preflop, I'm only going to look for the set or a real sweet draw to put any more $ in the pot.

If you get it head's up, you can have a little more elbow room to maneuver through rest of hand depending on how you feel.

I don't like QQ's with current stacks in a multi-way pot. Going to make post flop play too hard.

You seem to be smart player post from the posts I have seen in past so if you have that comfort level then a call may be OK moreso 3 handed then 4 handed.

Not in my comfort zone though.

[CobaltBlue]

I did in fact push and experienced some nice deja vu. Earlier in the same tournament a different UTG had raised, I pushed QQ in SB and he flipped KK to cripple me. I fully recovered...this situation came up...I pushed...he flipped AA to knock me out. BBFIDTS and all that...and I might've just been questioning the results a bit based on how I'd been running (frustrated when you grind grind grind back and then boom out). That said, I do think there's some merit to questioning whether a flat-call here is feasible...as we've obviously gotten some discussion out of it.

[Acid_Knight]

So is it the consensus that with button's flat call that this moves towards a shove? If he's out, does it become closer?

If the button is out, I'd lean more towards reraising to build the pot. Basically, at this point in the tourney, with your below average stack, if he has QQ beaten then you're gonna go broke. That's just my 2 cents.

But yeah, with the button in there and you being able to add 35-40% to your hand just by picking up the pot preflop, push 100% of the time IMO.

[Mercury69]

I'm calling here, looking to see a friendly flop (No A or K, a Q would be super!) seeing as there's two guys in already, which increases the likelihood of one of them having a PP bigger than yours. The 3x BB UTG raise is usually AK or better, unless he's got some balls and only has a middle pp, which seems to be reasonably popular these days.

Acid Knight's line (and most people's) to push preflop is perfectly reasonable, but I'm thinking that a check on whatever flop comes could give you some valuable info that you aren't getting preflop.

[Acid_Knight]

I'm calling here, looking to see a friendly flop (No A or K, a Q would be super!) seeing as there's two guys in already, which increases the likelihood of one of them having a PP bigger than yours. The 3x BB UTG raise is usually AK or better, unless he's got some balls and only has a middle pp, which seems to be reasonably popular these days.

Acid Knight's line (and most people's) to push preflop is perfectly reasonable, but I'm thinking that a check on whatever flop comes could give you some valuable info that you aren't getting preflop.

The problem with flat calling is you have no idea where you're at.

Axx flop or Kxx flop, do you check fold? Do you now commit chips to the pot after it is even more likely that you're beaten? Don't get me wrong, I advocate post flop play 100%, but his stack is below average, he has a powerful but vulnerable hand and there's a lot of dead money already in the pot. That's why I think pushing is far and away the best option.

[ChrisRichey]

I'm calling here, looking to see a friendly flop (No A or K, a Q would be super!) seeing as there's two guys in already, which increases the likelihood of one of them having a PP bigger than yours. The 3x BB UTG raise is usually AK or better, unless he's got some balls and only has a middle pp, which seems to be reasonably popular these days.

Acid Knight's line (and most people's) to push preflop is perfectly reasonable, but I'm thinking that a check on whatever flop comes could give you some valuable info that you aren't getting preflop.

You are giving utg a little too much credit, especially at this point in the mtt where the blinds and antes are getting up there. QQ is a great starting hand, but it does not play well OOP for a big pot against two people. Pushing pf is by far the best play. We don't need to see a flop and gather info, if somebody has KK/AA at this point, well that's a cooler.

[Mercury69]

The problem with flat calling is you have no idea where you're at.

Axx flop or Kxx flop, do you check fold? Do you now commit chips to the pot after it is even more likely that you're beaten? Don't get me wrong, I advocate post flop play 100%, but his stack is below average, he has a powerful but vulnerable hand and there's a lot of dead money already in the pot. That's why I think pushing is far and away the best option.

You are giving utg a little too much credit, especially at this point in the mtt where the blinds and antes are getting up there. QQ is a great starting hand, but it does not play well OOP for a big pot against two people. Pushing pf is by far the best play. We don't need to see a flop and gather info, if somebody has KK/AA at this point, well that's a cooler.

You're both right and my post is a reflection of how my luck has been running. In a way, i'd rather give too much credit than not enough (Never underestimate your opponent), but it's clearly the time for a move. Push is the best option vs flat call (probably around 65-35 for me, but higher for most of you).

I think I learnded something today...

[ChrisRichey]

Glad we could help, and sorry to hear that you've been running bad. When you're running bad, you should def start posting some hands to see if there is anything you might be missing. Another thing that really helped my game was sweating people or having them sweat you during mtts and sngs. I'm currently rebuilding my roll, but would be willing to help you out any way I can. GL.

[Lavitz]

I did in fact push and experienced some nice deja vu. Earlier in the same tournament a different UTG had raised, I pushed QQ in SB and he flipped KK to cripple me. I fully recovered...this situation came up...I pushed...he flipped AA to knock me out. BBFIDTS and all that...and I might've just been questioning the results a bit based on how I'd been running (frustrated when you grind grind grind back and then boom out). That said, I do think there's some merit to questioning whether a flat-call here is feasible...as we've obviously gotten some discussion out of it.

Nothing else you could do. If you flat call and flop is ragged youre still getting money in so results are still the same. You can't just fold it.

[shpaget]

I simply think that intentionally/purposefully playing QQ out of position against two players is ludicrous.

Are you going to check/fold a flop of K87? Bet/fold?


The only reason to call here is if you think you're behind, and you're looking to flop a set and double up. Of course, you MUST double up to make the price of calling preflop correct. And, you MUST be disciplined to maintain your belief that you are behind and fold to a bet on a board of 742.


And a simply utg raise isn't enough to isolate to the two hands that beat you.