7 replies to this topic

[VernonME]

Well i was just thinking about this subject, betting on the river, and i stumbled onto a puzzling question. I recently read a statement, from who i dont know, saying that betting on the river is to either build a pot or scare away a pot. while i see the point to this statement, it gets me to wonder about checking the river.
for example, lets say that everyone folds to the blinds. sb completes and bb (hero holds 8Jo) checks. in bb's mind, sb could have a huge variety of hands
flop comes 568 with a flush draw. you bet the pot and sb calls, the turn comes a Q, you bet 1/3 the pot and sb raises and you call, than a brick 2 comes. do you still bet thinking that mid pair is good (but i hear alot of ppl say that if you bet here, you will only get called by a better hand)? or do you check, but if you check, your allowing the sb to sense weakness on you and bluff at you with his missed draw. any insight or mind-opening knowledge on this subject?
i guess it all comes down to your read and instincts on the guy, whether if you check, he'll raise or check with you.

[No_Neck]

Well i was just thinking about this subject, betting on the river, and i stumbled onto a puzzling question. I recently read a statement, from who i dont know, saying that betting on the river is to either build a pot or scare away a pot. while i see the point to this statement, it gets me to wonder about checking the river.
for example, lets say that everyone folds to the blinds. sb completes and bb (hero holds 8Jo) checks. in bb's mind, sb could have a huge variety of hands
flop comes 568 with a flush draw. you bet the pot and sb calls, the turn comes a Q, you bet 1/3 the pot and sb raises and you call, than a brick 2 comes. do you still bet thinking that mid pair is good (but i hear alot of ppl say that if you bet here, you will only get called by a better hand)? or do you check, but if you check, your allowing the sb to sense weakness on you and bluff at you with his missed draw. any insight or mind-opening knowledge on this subject?
i guess it all comes down to your read and instincts on the guy, whether if you check, he'll raise or check with you.

I think that is very important to learn the right times to check call on the river, if your opponent was on a draw and he is the type of player that will fire if he feels he can't win the hand in a showdown the check call can be a great weapon.

Especially important in shorthanded play IHMO. It is an easy way to wimp out and miss value on the river if you over use it.

[Zach6668]

or do you check, but if you check, your allowing the sb to sense weakness on you and bluff at you with his missed draw. any insight or mind-opening knowledge on this subject?
i guess it all comes down to your read and instincts on the guy, whether if you check, he'll raise or check with you.

If you are BB, you have position on the SB, meaning if you check, he can't bet at your weakness.

However, I know what you are getting at. There are two lines you can take when OOP out of the river (well, more like 3 or 4).

1) check/call - In this scenario, you feel you may have the best hand often enough (depending on pot odds, etc), but you don't think he will call with a worse hand if you bet, and he'll never fold a better hand (meaning the bet has 0 value), however, you do think your opponent will bet either a missed draw, or a hand worse than yours when checked to (sensing weakness), as well as hands that are better than yours, obv.

2) bet/call and bet/fold - In this one, you've got a strong hand that is usually best, and you expect villain to call with his lesser hand, so you are value betting the river. If he raises, you are faced with a decision, but that is one you'll have to make dependent on the hand, and really can't be generalized. Essentially, you will value bet if you know he calls with worse hands, but checks worse hands down, usually, etc.

3) check/fold - obv, if you have a passive villain, who won't bluff a missed draw or a worse hand, etc, you can just check/fold the river with weaker hands, but these are the villains you should be value betting in the first place.

Is this for NL cash or tourney play?

- Zach

[VernonME]

great reply, thank you. as for the question, i was referring more to nl tourney/sng, i cant seem to get the hang of cash games

[Zach6668]

great reply, thank you. as for the question, i was referring more to nl tourney/sng, i cant seem to get the hang of cash games

Ok, I'll move this to the tourney forum and you'll get some more specific answers, maybe. Mine was more general. In the future, for tourney questions, I would recommend posting there.

- Zach

[asytnik]

If you are OOP on the river and are afraid that the Villain will bet with air then I think your best option is to do a defensive(or blocking) bet to take his play away. If your opponent is LAG then I think being OOP on the river is actually an advantage to you since you'll be the first one to bluff at the pot.

[shpaget]

The rule of thumb is, don't bet your midrange hands.

You will, typically, only get called by a better hand, and a worse hand will never call, so, the bet has no value, or, more accurately, negative value.


The classic example is if you play a heads up game where there are only three cards in the deck, a queen, king and ace.

You have the king.

If you bet, your opponent will almost always fold the queen, and always raise the ace....and, worse, once in a while he'll raise the queen. So, to bet profitably, you need to be certain you're ahead AND be certain he'll bluff at the pot.


If you check, he'll always bet the ace, and sometimes bet the queen...and then you simply have to decide when he's bluffing.



If you're opponent isn't very good and is willing to call bottom pair or AK on a board of 36789, then you can modify your betting standards as midrange hands start to have value. This is more common in a 2/4 limit game than a nl tournament.

[jmbreslin]

This may be just repeating what has already been said, but it seems to me there are only 2 general circumstances in which betting on the river makes sense:

1) If you're trying to steal the pot with a bluff, in which case you have to make sure you've set it up well from the beginning;

2) If you're confident that you have the strongest hand but the board is such that your opponent might think he has the strongest hand or can bluff you off the pot (e.g., you have a "hidden" full house and there is a straight or flush on the board).

Other than that I think it's usually best to just check the river.