10 replies to this topic

[GreatFolder]

I have always heard that the great poker players use the theory of Pot Odds when deciding whether or not to make a tough call. It seems to me though, anytime I here someone say they called because of pot odds they almost always have the worse hand. It seems that there is usually a reason why there is so much money in the pot and if you are having to debate for such a long time, that should send warning bells to get out. Please send me your theories on when it is right to call because of "pot odds" or not. Congrats to Daniel on an Excellent year.

[Metaphysician]

You do tend to have the worst hand when calling because of pot odds. Because you're generally DRAWING. That's the point, pot odds justify a draw. You can also call a bet at the end of a hand if you think you MAY have the best hand, if there's enough money in the pot to justify calling on your hunch. I rarely do the last thing, but I think it's legit. The only problem is it's hard to figure out if you are, for example 20% sure you have the best hand.

[JaysonWeber]

This topic has been moved to Poker Strategy, Thanks.

[Smasharoo]

I have always heard that the great poker players use the theory of Pot Odds when deciding whether or not to make a tough call. It seems to me though, anytime I here someone say they called because of pot odds they almost always have the worse hand. It seems that there is usually a reason why there is so much money in the pot and if you are having to debate for such a long time, that should send warning bells to get out. Please send me your theories on when it is right to call because of "pot odds" or not. Congrats to Daniel on an Excellent year.Understanding pot and implied odds is critical to winning money at any form of Poker. I'll assume you're talking about Holdem, so I'll offer you a couple of examples from Limmit and NL. I'll start with Limit because it's an easier example.Let's say you're playing $1/$2 limit and are delt A2 of hearts, or A2h going forward in the big blind. 5 people call the blind bet, and you check. The flop is 5h Ks Th. You check from the blind, the first player after you bets and everyone cals back to you. Let's say after the rake there is $9 in the pot now. The chance of you having the best hand here is minimal. It's very unlikely that your Ace high with a two kicker is the best hand, almost impossible in fact. Do you call?Most people would call instinctively because they understand that they have pot odds to draw to theri flush. Raising is actually better in this situation, because of pot odds, but let's walk before we can run. Let's look at why your call is correct, even though a raise would be better. There is $9 currently in the pot. You will make your flush draw slightly less than one time in 4 on the next card. If you call the bet there will be $10 in the pot and about one chance in 4 that you will make the winning hand on the very next card. Clearly this is good for you. If you play this hand 4 times and win once you will lose $3 for this call on the three hands you lose but win $10 on the hand you win for a profit of $7. It would be a big mistake not to call here with possibly the very worst hand out there.Let's look at a more extreme limit example. You are again playing at a $1/$2 table and again are on the BB. This time you look down to see KcKs looking back at you. Oh happy day! All nine players before you call the blind bet and you of course raise. Everyone calls and the player to your right, Mean Gene reraises, making it three bets to you. You've played with Mean Gene for years and you know he has an odd habbit of only three betting one hand, AQ. When he does and wins with it he even shouts "Mean Gene loves that ace queen!!!" Reasoning that your KK are still much better than AQ you cap making it 4 bets, and everyone calls. The flop comes Ad 9s 2h and after the rake there is $39 in the pot. For some strange reason evevryone folds instead of checking to Mean Gene who of course bets his pair of aces. Should you call here?You know for certain you don't have the best hand and you knnow your only chance of winning this hand is to catch one of the remaining Ks in the deck. In fact, you know that your chance of catching a king on the next card is 1 in 22. Slim odds indeed. You should absolutely call. Do you see why?With Mean Gene's bet, there is now $40 in the pot. When you call you will be getting 40 to 1 on your call hoping you catch a K on the next card. You will lose 21 times out of 22., You should still call, do you see why?The 21 times you lose, you will lose a total of $21. The one time you win you will win $41. This is an easy call. and folding would be a mistake.If you understand all that but are confused how it applies to NL let me know and we can talk about pot and implied odds in NL play.

[wrto4556]

I skipped whatever was wrote before this...just too lengthy...Even for me!!You can call on a draw like everyone else said...and on the "hunch", which is what I will elaborate on. Say you have K Q in a big multiway pot. Let's say 7 people seen the flop. Flop is Q J 4 . You raise a bet on the flop and get 4 callers. Turn is a blank...2 ....and again someone bets into you (there is no callers between you and the original better) and you raise again, hoping to eliminate the field....even if you think your behind. You still have a couple people call the raise cold. River brings a K and the original guy checks as do you, and a late position player bets. You are probably beat at this point...but lets say 1 out of 6 times your 2-pair wins, then it's worth a call. The pot is so big, you will still show a profit. Sometimes the better will hold QJo and the other people are drawing to a busted straight and a busted flush. They will stay in with there dry K, and you will rake in a monster pot. Your goal is to win big pots, you can't win by folding.

[RtherBNvegas]

I have another question about this if anyone can answer. I know what wrto4556 means in his post above about that hand winning 1 outta 6 and is worth calling. But I have also heard pro's talk about pot odds when talkin about say a gutshot straight. Ive seen in places where they say if the pot odds are good its worth the call to bust a good hand with your straight. But what exactly would "good" pot-odds be to call such al draw.

[RtherBNvegas]

RtherBNvegas said:

I have another question about this if anyone can answer.  I know what wrto4556  means in his post above about that hand winning 1 outta 6 and is worth calling. But I have also heard pro's talk about pot odds when talkin about say a gutshot straight. Ive seen in places where they say if the pot odds are good its worth the call to bust a good hand with your straight. But what exactly would "good" pot-odds be to call such al draw.

I guess I should look through the threads before i post something. Theres another thread that answers my question.sorry

[jogsxyz]

GreatFolder said:

. It seems to me though, anytime I here someone say they called because of pot odds they almost always have the worse hand.  

Of course you have the worst hand. If you had the best hand it would be an easy and automatic call.Having pot odds means there's enough money to be won to risk putting this much more money into the pot. You have the worst of it chances wise, but not money wise.Example. 750 chips in pot. 250 chips to call. You're a 7 to 3 dog. It's right to call. While your chances of winning is only 30%, you will win enough money when you hit to make it worth calling.

[vegasholdem]

There ain't a day that goes by that i don't have potsize/pot odds awareness in all my poker games!

[JFarrell20]

GreatFolder said:

I have always heard that the great poker players use the theory of Pot Odds when deciding whether or not to make a tough call. It seems to me though, anytime I here someone say they called because of pot odds they almost always have the worse hand. It seems that there is usually a reason why there is so much money in the pot and if you are having to debate for such a long time, that should send warning bells to get out. Please send me your theories on when it is right to call because of "pot odds" or not. Congrats to Daniel on an Excellent year.

Lets say you have AK and the BB is 400. Lets say you call along with 5 others. Then the BB pushes all in for 3000 to go. Everyone folds to you. You have 10000 in chips left. If you call and lose you go down to 7000. still OK in terms of BB. OK lets say you think this guy pushed in with QQ or worse. That means you are about a 48% chance to win. Now you feel like this could go either way, fold or call... lets figure out the "pot odds".You called, along with 5 others and the BB (i know i know.. family game). So 7 ppl called 400 that means theres 2800 in the pot. Now the BB moves 2600 more in. That means 5400 in the pot. If you call that means the pot would be 8000. This means that you can put up 3000 in order to win 5000 (8000 total). This means you are putting up 37.5% of the total pot in order win 100% of the pot. Now since that is less than 48% (your calculated probability that you will win, if you read of him having QQ or worse is right), then you have "pot odds" on your side. Pot odds say you should "gamble" here. the only other question is, do you WANT to gamble here knowing that you need to hit something. I hope this makes sense. Maybe this is better. Say it's heads up and you have AK and he's got QQ. you are about 48% to win. Since it is heads up and he moves all in pre-flop, this means you are putting up an amount in order to win the identical amount (since other people's blinds are not in this pot..get it?). This means that you put up 50% of the pot to win the other 50% when you know you are only 48% to in. Pot odds here say fold. But you may want to gamble. in the scenario before, you are getting pot odds b/c of the other players' blinds that have now folded. you are taking advantage of position of being the only player left in the pot.If you have further questions, please just to go barnes and noble and read doyles book. lol.

[Smasharoo]

I know what wrto4556 means in his post above about that hand winning 1 outta 6 and is worth calling. But I have also heard pro's talk about pot odds when talkin about say a gutshot straight.They're talking about the implied odds expecting to win a lot of bets when they make a gutshot with marginal pot odds because good players won't believe they drew to it and will pay them off well.Don't worry about it untill you start playing with very good players.