11 replies to this topic

[Snamuh]

With Hand #1 still in my mind, I came across the following hand.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero ($49.25)Button ($26.95)SB ($52.10)BB ($25.75)UTG ($86.80)UTG+1 ($54.95)MP1 ($12.35)MP2 ($61.75)Preflop: Hero is CO with J, A. UTG raises to $1.5, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.50, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.Flop: ($5.25) 5, 3, J (3 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $3.5, Button folds, UTG calls $3.50.Turn: ($12.25) J (2 players)UTG checks, Hero bets $6, UTG raises to $20, Hero calls $14.River: ($52.25) 9 (2 players)UTG bets $22.5, Hero calls $22.50.Final Pot: $97.25This is only my fourth hand at this table and my first hand played. I have no reads on the villain. With a fairly small UTG raise, I put the villain on an overpair. However when the villain suddenly showed aggression on the turn, the hand from earlier flashed into my mind. This time though, I genuinely thought I was ahead. Standard play here?

[bdc30]

I'm all in on the turn here close to 100.9% of the time.Do you really think 33 or 55 raise utg in an 8 handed game that often?

[NEtwowilldo]

I think you have the best hand here.If you call the turn, planning to call the bet on the river, you might as well just make the bet yourself and go all in on the turn. That's a pretty standard rule.

[Sefaje]

NEtwowilldo, on Friday, February 23rd, 2007, 7:27 AM, said:

I think you have the best hand here.If you call the turn, planning to call the bet on the river, you might as well just make the bet yourself and go all in on the turn. That's a pretty standard rule.

Fortunately, poker is a game where rules like this don't ALWAYS apply. Especially on a hand like this. The only thing hero can't beat is 55 or 33. Why would he want to push the turn and scare away an overpair? I call the turn because most of the time, villain is drawing to 2 outs. It's possible he has a jack as well, in which case he's at best splitting. I think an all in on the turn is awful, as he'll probably fold a lottt of things we're beating. The goal with AJ here is to get the money into the pot. Not win the hand.Call the turn, and call anything on the river or value bet if he checks.

[dms26]

I like your hand here a lot more than hand #1, post flop I play it the same. Preflop I don't know how crazy I am about calling an UTG raise with AJ, even if it is soooted. I think you sucked out against an overpair.Hand #1 I probably check-call the river, that board is much uglier than this one.

[DanielNegreanu]

With no read at all, I think you need to move all in on the turn just in case he has a draw. If you did have a read, though, and felt like he either had an over pair or was bluffing, then I like the call. It gives your opponent another opportunity to hang himself. If there is any chance that he's on the draw, though, not re-raising the turn is a little silly IMO.

[Sefaje]

DanielNegreanu, on Friday, February 23rd, 2007, 9:13 AM, said:

With no read at all, I think you need to move all in on the turn just in case he has a draw. If you did have a read, though, and felt like he either had an over pair or was bluffing, then I like the call. It gives your opponent another opportunity to hang himself. If there is any chance that he's on the draw, though, not re-raising the turn is a little silly IMO.

What draw could he have? 24h (lol)? he raised UTG, the only hand that could possibly be drawing (to more than 3 outs) is like AKh. I think it's an overpair significantly more, based on his check/call and check/raise line. Doing that with a flush draw is very strange. If villain is going to play his overcards+FD strongly, wouldn't he do it on the flop? I don't see a point in him doing it once the board paired, especially jacks.Had villain led the turn weakly with what appeared to be a blocker bet, then it's time to charge the draw.

[DanielNegreanu]

Sefaje, on Friday, February 23rd, 2007, 7:21 AM, said:

What draw could he have? 24h (lol)? he raised UTG, the only hand that could possibly be drawing (to more than 3 outs) is like AKh. I think it's an overpair significantly more, based on his check/call and check/raise line. Doing that with a flush draw is very strange. If villain is going to play his overcards+FD strongly, wouldn't he do it on the flop? I don't see a point in him doing it once the board paired, especially jacks.Had villain led the turn weakly with what appeared to be a blocker bet, then it's time to charge the draw.

I understand your point, but villain didn't play this hand much like an over pair by check-calling with a flush draw present, and then check-raising when the worst card in the deck hit. He could easily have Ah 4h. Just because you might not raise with that hand from UTG, doesn't mean that other's wouldn't. Or, possibly even the 4h 6h.

[Sefaje]

DanielNegreanu, on Friday, February 23rd, 2007, 10:02 AM, said:

I understand your point, but villain didn't play this hand much like an over pair by check-calling with a flush draw present, and then check-raising when the worst card in the deck hit. He could easily have Ah 4h. Just because you might not raise with that hand from UTG, doesn't mean that other's wouldn't. Or, possibly even the 4h 6h.

so if we're in agreement that it doesnt make sense to do it with the FD or the big pair, villain is more likely to have AJ or 55/33. in which case hero should just call the turn raise and re-evaluate on the river?That seems a bit like a case of 'seeing monsters in the closet' though.I suppose since a big pair is foldable on the river, and a flush draw is possible just like a big pair, you're better off just folding both of them on the turn? Eh.Anyway, I think if villain has 55 in this hand he should have led the turn, and bet more on the river if so. And if he has a flush, he's a nasty human.

[Snamuh]

DanielNegreanu, on Friday, February 23rd, 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

With no read at all, I think you need to move all in on the turn just in case he has a draw. If you did have a read, though, and felt like he either had an over pair or was bluffing, then I like the call. It gives your opponent another opportunity to hang himself. If there is any chance that he's on the draw, though, not re-raising the turn is a little silly IMO.

The reason I didn't move in on the turn was because I had a pretty strong read that it was an overpair. If I shove that turn, there's a good chance the villain folds. I did not for a second think he was drawing because very few players at this level bet their draws this way unless the draw included the Jh (unlikely). Like you said, I wanted him to bet into me once more on the river.

[mvdgaag]

What happened to KJs? His flop check would have been strange. I'd say his big reraise means either a J or Ah4h/Ah2h or possibly a stone cold bluff, which is unlikely. I think a suited ace is more likely, because os his flop check. Representing the J with a straight and flush draw is a nice semibluff here IMO."This time though, I genuinely thought I was ahead." So you weren't? wow!!?!

[Snamuh]

mvdgaag, on Tuesday, February 27th, 2007, 7:42 AM, said:

What happened to KJs? His flop check would have been strange. I'd say his big reraise means either a J or Ah4h/Ah2h or possibly a stone cold bluff, which is unlikely. I think a suited ace is more likely, because os his flop check. Representing the J with a straight and flush draw is a nice semibluff here IMO."This time though, I genuinely thought I was ahead." So you weren't? wow!!?!

I was WA in this one as I expected (villain had TT - I actually expected to see something better than this, maybe KK or KJ).