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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 05:12 PM

Waiting till the turn for more information:Another bone of contention I have with certain authors is the theory that you should play your hands aggressively on the flop so as to better define your hand, and at the same time, to gain more information from your opponents. This theory is actually very effective in limit hold’em, but that theory doesn’t translate well to no limit tournaments. The main reason for that, is simple: it’s too expensive. In limit hold’em, a raise represents just one extra unit, but in no limit hold’em, if you are going to raise someone on the flop to “find out where you are at” it will cost you a pretty penny. Let’s look at an example:With blinds at 50-100 a player from early position makes it 300 and you call with Ah Jh. The big blind calls so three of you see the flop: Ad 8s 3h. The big blind checks and the pre-flop raiser bets out 800. If you were to raise him here, a standard raise would cost you about, say, 2400 in chips. So let’s say you do that, the big blind folds, and now the first raiser calls the bet. What information have you gained exactly? What if the under the gun player re-raises you? Well in this case, it would seem as though you’ve gained some valuable information and your AJ is likely behind. You could fold and take your 2400 loss.Now, in this same situation, let’s look at the benefits of just calling on the flop and you’ll see that all of the information that cost you 2400 on the flop, you can get with an 800 call on the flop coupled with a reevaluation on the turn.So now you just call on the flop and the big blind folds. The turn card is a Q and now your opponent bets 1600. You still aren’t sure if your AJ is the best hand, but the fact that your opponent bet again should lean you towards thinking that you are beat. Since you are unsure, though, you call the 1600. Now, at this point, it’s cost you the exact same amount of chips had you raised on the flop, the only difference is that you’ve made it all the way to the river. To help you figure out the best course of action on the river you have the following information: My opponent raised before the flop and followed through with a continuation bet on the flop. I called the bet, a Queen hit the turn yet my opponent wasn’t afraid and bet once again. I called that bet as well, so if my opponent makes a big bet at the river he has to know that I have a strong hand and am not on a draw. That’s a lot of information. Your opponent could still bluff you on the river, but the same could be said about his flop re-raise. He may be coming over the top of you on the flop with a weaker ace, or just as a bluff.There is one other key benefit to smooth calling on the flop in this situation rather than raising: you allow yourself a chance to suck out! If your opponent has, say, AK, bets the 800, you make it 2400, and now he re-raises you off the hand, you’ve just lost 2400 with no chance to get lucky. However, if you just call the flop, you could get really lucky and spike a Jack on the turn or river. Or, you could even make a backdoor flush with the hand and possibly win a big pot. The only thing that’s better about raising on the flop is that you protect your hand from being outdrawn when you are ahead, and you also get information about your opponents hand quicker. Getting outdrawn with AJ on an A-8-3 rainbow flop should be the least of your concerns. If you are in the lead, then you will be substantially in the lead. A worse ace can only hit one of three kickers, and a pocket pair can only hit one of two cards. The biggest threat is a total of five outs if your opponent has a hand like 8-9. That’s hardly something to be overly concerned about. As for the other benefit, who cares “when” you find out your opponent has you beat? If it costs you no less to see the river, but it takes longer to come to the conclusion that your opponent has you beat, how could that hurt you in the least?




#2 Balloon guy

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 05:23 PM

I am glad you are recommending this type of play. I always feel that I am being passive when I don't want to raise after the flop when I hit something, but don't really know where I am. And passive is suppose to be bad right? Aggresive is the best way according to so many authors and commentators, and it makes me feel like I am wimping out by not 'defining' my hand.But once the pot gets that big, then I really get stuck making a tricky decision with a weakish hand.Looking forward to the book. Hopefully you will have a full set of hair for the picture on the back cover :club:
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#3 DCJ001

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 05:35 PM

Good advice.I'd recommend revising “find out where you are at” in the second paragraph to say “find out where you are” to set a positive example, however.

#4 Miguel McHarris

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 08:52 PM

Great advice. Seems like a perfect strategy for the "3rd bullet" (Matusow) type of player. :club:

#5 kennyg1966

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 03:40 PM

what happened to folding KK pre flop ?
Doh !

#6 RiscaRod

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Posted 19 February 2007 - 12:43 PM

Thats easily the best article I have read this year.
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#7 StevenBullen

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 05:26 AM

Quality read... Thanks :club:

#8 The President

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Posted 14 March 2007 - 06:06 PM

so would most people call a bet on thr river here or do we think that another bet on the river means that villain is ahead?its probably jst cos im a bad player, but even with this information that daniel suggests we've gained, i wouldnt know where i stand once the river card comes and we still only have a pair of aces.

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Sunday, February 18th, 2007, 1:12 AM, said:

I called the bet, a Queen hit the turn yet my opponent wasn’t afraid and bet once again. I called that bet as well, so if my opponent makes a big bet at the river he has to know that I have a strong hand and am not on a draw.
the other query i have is, would this strategy only work on a board without draws on it. If the board was draw heavy and we decide to just call down, if the river bricks and the villain fires a third bullet, i wouldnt know if the villain thinks i'm on a draw and is bluffing, or whether he actually has a hand. does that make sense? :club:

#9 Money022

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Posted 18 March 2007 - 11:46 AM

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#10 MrH

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Posted 23 March 2007 - 08:15 PM

Smooth calling to gain more information is great for a benign flop such as that when in pos, but how about on a flop like JsTh8h, when holding AdJd? Wouldn't that raise to 2400 be a far better play in order to price out the BB calling with hearts or a nine, and better define your hand against the early position player?
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#11 myenemy

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 10:06 AM

View PostMrH, on Saturday, March 24th, 2007, 12:15 AM, said:

Smooth calling to gain more information is great for a benign flop such as that when in pos, but how about on a flop like JsTh8h, when holding AdJd? Wouldn't that raise to 2400 be a far better play in order to price out the BB calling with hearts or a nine, and better define your hand against the early position player?
probably

#12 justrobbedgranma

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Posted 04 April 2007 - 04:21 PM

Thank you for that daniel....was always going to buy the book when it was released and if this is the sort of information thats in it im looking even more forward too it.....have too say it seems well written and easy to understand tooo.....couldnt ask for much more...

#13 pmccaf02

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Posted 12 April 2007 - 10:24 PM

View PostMrH, on Friday, March 23rd, 2007, 8:15 PM, said:

Smooth calling to gain more information is great for a benign flop such as that when in pos, but how about on a flop like JsTh8h, when holding AdJd? Wouldn't that raise to 2400 be a far better play in order to price out the BB calling with hearts or a nine, and better define your hand against the early position player?
I don't necessarily think raising in this spot is the right move here, depending on the progression of the tournament (blinds are 50-100, but stack sizes are omitted). This is a hand that will get you into a lot of trouble and I would be looking to just call this flop, if not fold. While you are pricing in the big blind, you are also preventing yourself from losing a substantial amount of chips with a hand that is potentially drawing dead. We'll assume for a moment that the early position raiser is a fairly good player. What did he raise with from early position that we can beat? We can liberally say that his range is anywhere from 88 - AA wired, KQs, AQ-AK. In this scenario there are only two hands that we are dominating - AK & AQ - and 2 others that we are beating - 99 & KQs. If our villain has the KQ of hearts, then we are a statistical underdog. Every other combination is beating us handily, and 2 of the hands that we can beat, our villain may be willing to go to war with. Suppose that villain has the 99 or KQ of hearts. In this spot there is a fair chance that our raise gets called, assuming the stacks are deep enough or our stack is small enough. If the turn card is scary, we are forced to give up on the hand and check down anyway. We have not gained much information by his call. We can rule out the two hands we can beat, but there is a good chance villain may be calling scared with AA, KK, QQ, or slowplaying a set, although he'd probably reraise a set for fear of letting you catch up. By just calling, we give ourselves the opportunity to see if the turn presents us with an opportunity to get out cheaply or make a play. By calling we haven't given villain much to work with as we could likely be playing the same range he has along with J10 for 2 pair or suited connectors that gave us a flush draw. If villain bets any turn card other than the Jc we can muck the small pot fairly certain we had the worst hand.. If villain checks, we have the opportunity to try and check it down or to use our read of the situation to determine whether he will fold AA, KK, QQ, 99, or KQs to a large bet. This would not be as plausible a situation had we reraised the flop, because there is a good chance that villain will feel priced in with QQ-AA or KQs. The only hand he's dropping when we follow our raise with a turn bet is 99, which we were beating to begin with (and his chances of making this hand are greatly diminished with only one card to come).So, assuming we don't have a preflop read on our opponent and he doesn't have some sort of massive tell, it is best to play this hand as slowly as possible and remember that big pots are for big hands. There will be better opportunities to take down chips without a contest later. There's no reason to go to war with a best case scenario 65%/35% favorite and a worst case scenario runner runner boat draw. -Patrick-

#14 BuyTheSunshine

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 09:21 AM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Sunday, February 18th, 2007, 2:12 AM, said:

Waiting till the turn for more information:The only thing that’s better about raising on the flop is that you protect your hand from being outdrawn when you are ahead, and you also get information about your opponents hand quicker. Getting outdrawn with AJ on an A-8-3 rainbow flop should be the least of your concerns. If you are in the lead, then you will be substantially in the lead. A worse ace can only hit one of three kickers, and a pocket pair can only hit one of two cards. The biggest threat is a total of five outs if your opponent has a hand like 8-9. That’s hardly something to be overly concerned about. As for the other benefit, who cares “when” you find out your opponent has you beat? If it costs you no less to see the river, but it takes longer to come to the conclusion that your opponent has you beat, how could that hurt you in the least?
I think there is more benefits that re-raising brings. It gives you a more aggressive table-image and discourages people from bluffing at you. Also if you suspect that someone bluffs at you on the flop and re-raise, they will find it suspicious (if you always call with hands like you described), they will know that 1. that you think they are bluffing, and 2. you probably don't have much of an hand. Do you see this as a problem?

#15 maniacinaction4

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 09:43 PM

View PostBuyTheSunshine, on Saturday, April 21st, 2007, 9:21 AM, said:

I think there is more benefits that re-raising brings. It gives you a more aggressive table-image and discourages people from bluffing at you. Also if you suspect that someone bluffs at you on the flop and re-raise, they will find it suspicious (if you always call with hands like you described), they will know that 1. that you think they are bluffing, and 2. you probably don't have much of an hand. Do you see this as a problem?
I'm afraid that I'll agree with Daniel raising on the flop is not much benefit because if you are re-raised, then you just lost a huge portion of your chips. As aggressive as Daniel is, he would flat call alot too. That's the best way against an aggressive or weaker players, plus you want to keep the pots as small as possible.

#16 bigstack1980

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 09:12 PM

vn read great info to adapt in my game


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#17 Niezels

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 07:33 PM

View PostBuyTheSunshine, on Saturday, April 21st, 2007, 7:21 PM, said:

I think there is more benefits that re-raising brings. It gives you a more aggressive table-image and discourages people from bluffing at you. Also if you suspect that someone bluffs at you on the flop and re-raise, they will find it suspicious (if you always call with hands like you described), they will know that 1. that you think they are bluffing, and 2. you probably don't have much of an hand. Do you see this as a problem?
Shunshine:I agree that sometimes you should reraise. But I does depends on the situation. On a A x x Rainbowflop A reraise with AJs is a risky move. And you should only make this when you have a very good read on your oponent. That is knowing his range and knowing of his habbit to make a continuationbet on the flop. And I'm not mentioning the BB that is to act behind you in this case. I strongly believe and agree that in this situation is to be passive and work on pot control. You really don't want to put you stack at risk with AJ in this situation. And the fact that in this case you choose to flatcall the bet and see what the BB does, is the play you will always make. This is just not the spot to do otherwise. So in another situation you will do otherwise. Simply because you have the worst position at this spot. Simply because you are first to act after the agressor. I think you should be glad with a call and hopefully have the BB end the round by calling or even better folding. And this call has added value for the future. If the Villian is the Mike type that will fire 3 bullets, let him. Cause you will do the same play when you hit trips on a nondescriptive board. Giving him the turn and the river to feed the pot so you can surprize him with a reraise on the river. Because in that case he will call down with an AK holding. And if he was firing bullets on a bluf you just got his chips you would not get with a reraise on the flop. With this all making you unpredictable and have your opponent think twice the next time your in this situation giving you a cheap way to go to the river. Finally if you believe he is bluffing and the third bullit is one you can call just look him up. If you win at that point against AT or a cold bluff. You are giving him the message that you are not to be messed around with and he will back off on you. To DN: With this as a glimp on your book, I'm looking forward to bying and reading the book. Hoping it will challange me to look at my strategy based on your insights on the greatest game around.

#18 Derswick

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 11:17 PM

Is the book dead? Its been a long time since we have heard anything.
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#19 RailBird32

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 10:23 PM

This is good advice. i also came up with some other benefits to playing it this way (at least benefits for me); if the lead raiser is on a bluff you can gain more value by letting him keep firing as opposed to raising him and shutting him out. Also if you are a better player than the lead raiser and you don't know much about them anyway, keeping the pot small by smooth calling on the flop is best; why play a big pot with a weak player with a possible second best hand.

#20 Snake Plissken

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 09:56 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Sunday, February 18th, 2007, 2:12 AM, said:

Waiting till the turn for more information:Another bone of contention I have with certain authors is the theory that you should play your hands aggressively on the flop so as to better define your hand, and at the same time, to gain more information from your opponents. This theory is actually very effective in limit hold’em, but that theory doesn’t translate well to no limit tournaments. The main reason for that, is simple: it’s too expensive. In limit hold’em, a raise represents just one extra unit, but in no limit hold’em, if you are going to raise someone on the flop to “find out where you are at” it will cost you a pretty penny. Let’s look at an example:With blinds at 50-100 a player from early position makes it 300 and you call with Ah Jh. The big blind calls so three of you see the flop: Ad 8s 3h. The big blind checks and the pre-flop raiser bets out 800. If you were to raise him here, a standard raise would cost you about, say, 2400 in chips. So let’s say you do that, the big blind folds, and now the first raiser calls the bet. What information have you gained exactly? What if the under the gun player re-raises you? Well in this case, it would seem as though you’ve gained some valuable information and your AJ is likely behind. You could fold and take your 2400 loss.Now, in this same situation, let’s look at the benefits of just calling on the flop and you’ll see that all of the information that cost you 2400 on the flop, you can get with an 800 call on the flop coupled with a reevaluation on the turn.So now you just call on the flop and the big blind folds. The turn card is a Q and now your opponent bets 1600. You still aren’t sure if your AJ is the best hand, but the fact that your opponent bet again should lean you towards thinking that you are beat. Since you are unsure, though, you call the 1600. Now, at this point, it’s cost you the exact same amount of chips had you raised on the flop, the only difference is that you’ve made it all the way to the river. To help you figure out the best course of action on the river you have the following information: My opponent raised before the flop and followed through with a continuation bet on the flop. I called the bet, a Queen hit the turn yet my opponent wasn’t afraid and bet once again. I called that bet as well, so if my opponent makes a big bet at the river he has to know that I have a strong hand and am not on a draw. That’s a lot of information. Your opponent could still bluff you on the river, but the same could be said about his flop re-raise. He may be coming over the top of you on the flop with a weaker ace, or just as a bluff.There is one other key benefit to smooth calling on the flop in this situation rather than raising: you allow yourself a chance to suck out! If your opponent has, say, AK, bets the 800, you make it 2400, and now he re-raises you off the hand, you’ve just lost 2400 with no chance to get lucky. However, if you just call the flop, you could get really lucky and spike a Jack on the turn or river. Or, you could even make a backdoor flush with the hand and possibly win a big pot. The only thing that’s better about raising on the flop is that you protect your hand from being outdrawn when you are ahead, and you also get information about your opponents hand quicker. Getting outdrawn with AJ on an A-8-3 rainbow flop should be the least of your concerns. If you are in the lead, then you will be substantially in the lead. A worse ace can only hit one of three kickers, and a pocket pair can only hit one of two cards. The biggest threat is a total of five outs if your opponent has a hand like 8-9. That’s hardly something to be overly concerned about. As for the other benefit, who cares “when” you find out your opponent has you beat? If it costs you no less to see the river, but it takes longer to come to the conclusion that your opponent has you beat, how could that hurt you in the least?





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