Thoughts On A Shove With Qq On A K High Board

[irishguy 14]

Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t25/t509 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: t610UTG+1: t590Hero: t1505MP2: t620MP3: t3493CO: t3900Button: t5210SB: t1310BB: t1675Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with 2 folds, Hero raises to t125, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t125 (pot was t200), 3 folds, BB calls t75 (pot was t325).Flop: :D (t400, 3 players)BB checks, Hero bets t325, MP3 folds, BB calls t325 (pot was t725).Turn: (t1050, 2 players)BB bets t450, Hero raises all-in t1055

[RDog 0]

Fold the turn.

[SuperJon 175]

I agree with Rdog, fold the turn.And raise more preflop, like 150-200.

[irishguy 14]

I like to mix up my preflop raise amount from time to time and feel if he's going to call 2.5xbb he'll just as likely call 3 or 4 bb.

[RDog 0]

I like to mix up my preflop raise amount from time to time and feel if he's going to call 2.5xbb he'll just as likely call 3 or 4 bb.

Yeah, I tend to move to 2.5x later on in tourneys but early I don't see as much of an advantage. Either way, I don't think pre-flop is the issue here.

[SuperJon 175]

I like to mix up my preflop raise amount from time to time and feel if he's going to call 2.5xbb he'll just as likely call 3 or 4 bb.

I don't think the 25/50 level is the time to get cute with your preflop raises. When the blinds get to 150/300, then you can start throwing in 2.5xbb raises. My point is this, you really don't want a multi way pot anytime you have a big pair. Raising 2.5xbb at this stage is going to get you exactly that, 95% of the time.

[ChrisRichey 1]

Fold the turn.

Yep.

[irishguy 14]

I don't think the 25/50 level is the time to get cute with your preflop raises. When the blinds get to 150/300, then you can start throwing in 2.5xbb raises. My point is this, you really don't want a multi way pot anytime you have a big pair. Raising 2.5xbb at this stage is going to get you exactly that, 95% of the time.

I understand not wanting a multi way pot with a big pair. When mulit means 5,6 etc. Nothing wrong with bringing 1 or 2 people to the flop we do after all want action. As I said raising 3,4 bb generally won't tell you much different than 2.5bb will.

[irishguy 14]

Fold the turn.

Easy fold or a thinker? Why?

[RDog 0]

Easy fold or a thinker? Why?

Oh, it definitely isn't an easy fold. One of those where you type "****" in the chatbox. The main reason it is a fold is because you have no fold equity with a shove. You can't represent AK because he can't fold your shove. My guess is he has like KJ. I would say someone is leading this turn maybe 10-20% of the time without a King (or a 4) in his hand. Heck, he could even have A4. Spades I don't think he leads for half your stack, he either shoves, check/shoves or check/folds.

[ChrisRichey 1]

Easy fold or a thinker? Why?

It sucks, but it's an easy fold. What hand leads here that you beat?

[irishguy 14]

It sucks, but it's an easy fold. What hand leads here that you beat?

Personally I don't think this should really ever be an easy fold. As far as what leads here that I beat well other than a pure bluff I certainly think we could see a fair amount of mid pairs playing like this as well as some drawing hands.

[RDog 0]

It sucks, but it's an easy fold. What hand leads here that you beat?

I agree with you that it is a fold but I would be careful saying that leading shows strength. The stacks here make it difficulte because we have no FE but.......when people lead at me, I tend to raise. Most leads are block bets. Moreso on the flop than this one on the turn but still same concept. If these stacks were deep, I would raise if I were Hero here. 3 reasons, might get hand like K10 to fold, gives you more info because if he calls your raise he at least has a King AND gives you a free river. The stack sizes make that impossible here.

[Jam-Fly 8]

Lead 200-250 on flop. These slightly smaller bets keep the pot slightly smaller when your beat which leads to alot of saved chips.I think you gota fold on turn.

[SuperJon 175]

I understand not wanting a multi way pot with a big pair. When mulit means 5,6 etc. Nothing wrong with bringing 1 or 2 people to the flop we do after all want action. As I said raising 3,4 bb generally won't tell you much different than 2.5bb will.

There's plenty wrong with bringing more than 1 person along when you have a strong but vulnerable hand like QQ. Of course we want action, but not with 2 or more people seeing the flop when we have hands like QQ or JJ. It's just too likely that if an overcard hits we are beat. Raising a hand like 89s, it's okay to get heads up action or multi way. Because with this hand, you can easily dump it in a multi way pot if you don't hit anything, or if it's heads up you can use your position to take the pot away.Anyways, don't worry about my ranting. In the end it's how we choose to play that makes us the players we are.

[irishguy 14]

Lead 200-250 on flop. These slightly smaller bets keep the pot slightly smaller when your beat which leads to alot of saved chips.I think you gota fold on turn.

I agree with you on the c-bet amount. I think betting 250-300 is more ideal here. I seldom c-bet half the pot as I feel especially in multi way pots with flush possibilities etc it looks to weak and opens you up to being pushed off the hand to frequently.

[irishguy 14]

I agree with you that it is a fold but I would be careful saying that leading shows strength. The stacks here make it difficulte because we have no FE but.......when people lead at me, I tend to raise. Most leads are block bets. Moreso on the flop than this one on the turn but still same concept. If these stacks were deep, I would raise if I were Hero here. 3 reasons, might get hand like K10 to fold, gives you more info because if he calls your raise he at least has a King AND gives you a free river. The stack sizes make that impossible here.

I like everything about this post. I seldom use time bank on a real decision(just for postering) but on this hand I did. As you said with deepstacks there would be a very standard raise on his turn bet. Now his turn lead seemed very weak to me but as you said I had like zero fold equity. Blinds just went up and with his raise he was leaving himself with an M of 11 if he was going to fold to a shove. I thought there was a very slim chance I could shove and get a fold out of a weak King but very unlikely. I also thought that because my c-bet was so big if he held a King and thought it was ahead we likely get it in on the flop.

[SlackerInc 0]

I would fold the turn as well, but this is an interesting hand considering a column I read the other day in Card Player magazine. The columnist (a guy I've seen play on TV but his name escapes me at the moment) criticised Phil Hellmuth Jr. for folding QQ on a K-high board against Toto Leonidas. Of course, Leonidas is known to be very aggressive; but if our hero here had that kind of take on villain, it's something to consider.