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#1 11 to 1

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 08:49 AM

First, I am reading Ace on the River and Barry Greenstein says his win rate per session when he was playing almost all ring games was over 75% for NL and about 58% for Limit.58%? Is this about what you all do? I'm pretty newbie so I don't know what a reasonable expectation of per session is. I don't even think in those terms, but it seems pretty low to me - OTOH...I moved up in limits, not much, from micro to low and found out I really do suck. I think. I'm actually not experienced enough to know if I really suck this badly or just am on a bad run. Second question, is there any software for practicing that anyone recommends as being worth the money? If I am going to be this bad while I'm learning, I am going to go broke, or end up playing a lot of tournaments, but I don't like tournaments and they play differently anyway, so I figure it's not going to help that much with my cash game.
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#2 Zach6668

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 09:00 AM

I never really look at poker in terms of sessions. PokerTracker defines a session as each time you sit at a single table, so I put in like 12 sessions every night kinda thing as I play 4-5 tables and move around as they break, etc. So it may be somewhat skewed, but I wouldn't be suprised if 58% is about right.With respect to practice software, honestly, your best bet is to just play as many hands as you can. That's pretty much how I learned. Play a ton of hands at a limit you are overrolled for, and post any hand that you have any sort of questions on, and we'll do our best to help you out. In other words, I know of no software.I'm kinda interested though, what limits do you play, how many hands have you logged, do you have pokertracker, etc... Give us a ton of info and we can probably specify a more individualized practice schedule, so to speak.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#3 11 to 1

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 10:14 AM

View PostZach6668, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 12:00 PM, said:

I never really look at poker in terms of sessions. PokerTracker defines a session as each time you sit at a single table, so I put in like 12 sessions every night kinda thing as I play 4-5 tables and move around as they break, etc. So it may be somewhat skewed, but I wouldn't be suprised if 58% is about right.With respect to practice software, honestly, your best bet is to just play as many hands as you can. That's pretty much how I learned. Play a ton of hands at a limit you are overrolled for, and post any hand that you have any sort of questions on, and we'll do our best to help you out. In other words, I know of no software.I'm kinda interested though, what limits do you play, how many hands have you logged, do you have pokertracker, etc... Give us a ton of info and we can probably specify a more individualized practice schedule, so to speak.- Zach
Thanks, Zach. Understand, I never heard of Texas Hold 'Em or played poker in my life until a couple months ago. (Bridge was the game at my house growing up - a great excuse to drink and swear - you'da thought it was poker the way my parents played it. I'll never forget my Dad, now passed, shouting at my brother-in-law Pull the f**king trump!") I play micro-low, so I feel like I'm wasting you all's time up here. I started at 1-2 cent, worked up to 25/50 and then went to .50/1.00 a week ago. I did OK at first, but man, I just feel like I am completely outclassed and it's not that big a difference. I don't want to move back, I want to figure it out. I don't even know what a poker tracker is, and all these conversations here are some kinda poker jargon I am clueless about. Thing is, when I go to the casino, I do pretty well. I am playing the lowest limit at Foxwoods, 2/4, and thinking of moving up! WTF?If someone could link me to a poker-tracker, I'll start with that and go post hands n' stuff in the micro threads.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#4 David_Nicoson

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 10:54 AM

View Post11 to 1, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 1:14 PM, said:

If someone could link me to a poker-tracker, I'll start with that and go post hands n' stuff in the micro threads.
Pick one of these:
QUOTE(bleacherbum3 @ Friday, February 29th, 2008, 3:28 AM) View Post
I'm invincible. Like Super Mario when he gets that star thingy.


#5 Zach6668

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 11:03 AM

View PostDavid_Nicoson, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 1:54 PM, said:

Pick one of these:
Most people here use PokerTracker, so I'd recommend that, although I've never used Office.Honestly, if I were to start from scratch again, with no knowledge at all, I'd pretty well do what I did, and post every single hand, even the smallest decisions, that I was unsure of, and read and reply in every single post in both Micro Limit, and the Limit board.Also, PLEAAAAAAAASE don't feel as if you're wasting anyone's time if you post hands from 1c/2c or anything. We all started somewhere small, and we're all here for the same reason, and that is to improve, no matter what level we're at currently.Also, I played a ton of hands when I was just learning, and I think that was a huge key as well.For poker jargon, don't hesitate to ask any of us, and in the meantime, this thread. It contains internet slang we use here as well as some classic general threads, but definitely has some of the jargon we use here in Strat, so it could be useful to ya.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#6 Actuary

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 06:37 PM

http://www.amazon.co...i...TF8&s=booksyw.Post lots of Hands.I was in your exact postion in June of 05.I'm pretty decent at low stakes, now.In fact, pretty much learned how to play well enough to make $$$ in a month.But I posted intensely, the games were softer, and others were posting as wellPost lots of handsDon't have attitudeGive your arguments, listen and learn and discuss.Don't cold call raises from EP raisers when you have 66.That one was free.

#7 11 to 1

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 07:04 PM

View PostActuary, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 9:37 PM, said:

Post lots of handsDon't have attitudeGive your arguments, listen and learn and discuss.Don't cold call raises from EP raisers when you have 66.That one was free.
I don't do attitude in this kind of sitruation, just wastes everyone's time. I do have two hands from today's sit n go (I thought it would be a good compromise between cash games and multis for experience at low cost ) - haven't found them yet. But they did send me this....can you all tell anything from it? Thanks to all for the help, not being a poker player, I have no friends who are poker players, so I've been pretty much doing it on my own...anyway...does this mean anything? It was a cheapie $5 limit sit n go:You finished in 6th place (eliminated at hand #8440228055).57 hands played and saw flop: - 1 times out of 7 while in small blind (14%) - 4 times out of 7 while in big blind (57%) - 14 times out of 43 in other positions (32%) - a total of 19 times out of 57 (33%) Pots won at showdown - 5 out of 7 (71%) Pots won without showdown - 3Wait. Even I can see something--I played too much, didn't I? I've been keeping track myself in a notebook, I'll go see how many hands I play in a cash game. I am thinking it's about 1.5 per revolution.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#8 Actuary

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 07:16 PM

View Post11 to 1, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 7:04 PM, said:

can you all tell anything from it?
no

View Post11 to 1, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 7:04 PM, said:

Wait. Even I can see something--I played too much, didn't I?
not enough hands played to say.If this is normal, then yeah...but if the table is really passive, I love to see cheap flops in tourneys too..while the blinds are low

View Post11 to 1, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 7:04 PM, said:

I'll go see how many hands I play in a cash game. I am thinking it's about 1.5 per revolution.
counting when you are the BB? In Limit 20% is a target...17-23% for full ring

#9 Zach6668

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 07:19 PM

View Post11 to 1, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 10:04 PM, said:

I don't do attitude in this kind of sitruation, just wastes everyone's time. I do have two hands from today's sit n go (I thought it would be a good compromise between cash games and multis for experience at low cost ) - haven't found them yet. But they did send me this....can you all tell anything from it? Thanks to all for the help, not being a poker player, I have no friends who are poker players, so I've been pretty much doing it on my own...anyway...does this mean anything? It was a cheapie $5 limit sit n go:You finished in 6th place (eliminated at hand #8440228055).57 hands played and saw flop: - 1 times out of 7 while in small blind (14%) - 4 times out of 7 while in big blind (57%) - 14 times out of 43 in other positions (32%) - a total of 19 times out of 57 (33%) Pots won at showdown - 5 out of 7 (71%) Pots won without showdown - 3Wait. Even I can see something--I played too much, didn't I? I've been keeping track myself in a notebook, I'll go see how many hands I play in a cash game. I am thinking it's about 1.5 per revolution.
That's not nearly enough information to even tell if you did play too loose.My advice for you is to pick one thing, for now, and focus on it. Get the principles, etc down pat in one form of hold'em (ie Limit, SNGs, MTTs, etc) before you move on to the next one.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#10 11 to 1

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 07:52 PM

View PostZach6668, on Wednesday, February 14th, 2007, 10:19 PM, said:

That's not nearly enough information to even tell if you did play too loose.My advice for you is to pick one thing, for now, and focus on it. Get the principles, etc down pat in one form of hold'em (ie Limit, SNGs, MTTs, etc) before you move on to the next one.
Yeah, I think you're right. I feel like I just moved from an automatic to a five speed stick. I'm gonna have to try a few of these things and choose, I guess.

Quote

Actuary said: In Limit 20% is a target...17-23% for full ring
Funny, I read a slew of poker books, can't remember getting a simple stat like this, thnaks. I checked my own log - I was kidding myself - the actual rate is about 26%. Gonna go download that pokertracker deal. Not sure how many of those are BBs, so many ck-ck-ck- games, yanno?
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#11 11 to 1

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 08:33 PM

I know there is some converter people use, I just did this with our edit stuff, tell me what the other way is that is the convention here and I'll do that. The question is: what would you do differently and why? One of my issues is: I feel like when I do win, I don't know how to get paid off. So, I try to get money into the pot pretty much anytime I still think I might win - thing is, even though folding ended up being good, I think I should've stayed to the end. Criticism appreciated. PokerStars Game #8431661356: Hold'em Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/02/13 - 23:47:46 (ET)Table 'Vitja' 10-max Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: mack mclean ($3.70 in chips) Seat 2: ACE_Fish1 ($14.25 in chips) Seat 3: jerry-777 ($59.65 in chips) Seat 5: ladebonis ($24.05 in chips) Seat 6: spikeb2 ($34.35 in chips) Seat 7: PartyBee ($50.40 in chips) Seat 8: Tammy_Lea123 ($35.75 in chips) Seat 9: blntznbrndy ($22.30 in chips) Seat 10: MrdrofCrows ($19 in chips) spikeb2: posts small blind $0.25PartyBee: posts big blind $0.50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to MrdrofCrows :D :D Tammy_Lea123: folds blntznbrndy: folds MrdrofCrows: raises $0.50 to $1mack mclean: calls $1ACE_Fish1: folds jerry-777: calls $1ladebonis: folds spikeb2: folds PartyBee: folds *** FLOP *** :icon_dance: :icon_dance: :)MrdrofCrows: bets $0.50mack mclean: raises $0.50 to $1jerry-777: calls $1MrdrofCrows: calls $0.50*** TURN *** :icon_dance: :icon_dance: :) :club:MrdrofCrows: checks mack mclean: bets $1jerry-777: calls $1MrdrofCrows: folds *** RIVER *** :icon_dance: :icon_dance: :) :D :Dmack mclean: bets $0.70 and is all-injerry-777: calls $0.70*** SHOW DOWN ***mack mclean: shows [5h Jh] (a flush, King high)jerry-777: mucks hand(edited to add: OMG - just downloaded the test version of Pokertracker - HOW COOL IS THAT! )
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#12 Actuary

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 09:51 PM

just paste the Hand History in the "Input" area of this site:http://poker-tools.f...d-Converter.phpAnd then press..."Convert Hand" and presto..it shows up in the output section,coverted.Paste it into here and voila.****************I would fold the flop, unless I knew that 2nd caller was loose and called with like AJ type hands here AND the raiser was capable of doing this with 88 or a drawBut, you're almost always drawing to two outs and when you are ahead, you are dodging maybe 12-15 cards, twice.Which is fine, given the pot odds to see showdown; however, as we first noted, that 2nd caller combined with the flop raiser, tells me someone has a K a lot here.The odds of two flush draws or something like 75 calling preflop are possibilites..but imo, not enough to call a small bet on the flop and two more big bets on the turn and river.I'm trying to think of a time to 3-bet here and fld to a cap but by then the pot is too big to fold for one more bet, when that other guy is calling.So, you end up c/f'ing the turn, Unimproved (UI) and cost 3 more small bets (SBs) than bet-folding the flop ( b/f ).But, a flop raise here, is also not always a K.If that raiser is capable of raising draws and worse pairs, like 88 here; and the caller is loosish; I'll bet/call the flop and bet/fold the turn. If he's drawing, he almost never pops the turn. Then I usually c/c the river, hoping to catch a bluff, and not get raised by a K or better. If both players call my turn bet, then I will not over-call the river. It gets messy taking this line. 85% of the time, I bet/fold the flop.Another thing to keep in mind. When you raise preflop, others put AK prominently in your range. When a K flops and you bet, I think they are less likely to raise here w/o the K because they know you are quite capable of having that hand. It's not like the board came 479 and he's trying to move you off over cards here.thats' some thoughts of the top of my head...TT is a very tough hand to play out of positionYou'll fold the best hand often. It happens

#13 Zach6668

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 05:57 AM

http://www.neildewhu.../hand-converter^^That one works well too as a converter, if you are ever on a site that isn't PokerStars.I'm with Actuary though, I probably bet/fold that flop.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#14 11 to 1

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 10:13 AM

View PostActuary, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 12:51 AM, said:

just paste the Hand History in the "Input" area of this site:http://poker-tools.f...d-Converter.phpAnd then press..."Convert Hand" and presto..it shows up in the output section,coverted.Paste it into here and voila.****************I would fold the flop, ...
Yes, exactly what I should have done. I've had this tendency to play a pair from any position if I can limp in. Mostly because I have won these large (for me) casino pots when I've flopped trips with like, 33. But, then I read Harmon in SS and she's all about aggression, so I've been raising pre-flop with any pair down to 99. I think it's been helping, I'm collecting blinds with that and I think I might be running out a few drawing hands, but....but I always just folded on the flop if I didn't hit. Now, sometimes, the pot seems so large, I figure I ought to call another card. I think I just screwed my head up. So my question for you and Zach is, would you have limped, raised or what preflop?

Quote

Another thing to keep in mind. When you raise preflop, others put AK prominently in your range. When a K flops and you bet, I think they are less likely to raise here w/o the K because they know you are quite capable of having that hand. It's not like the board came 479 and he's trying to move you off over cards here.
I gotta tell you, I think he just bet the way he did becausehe was almost broke and decided to go for it. I don't know why people do that in ring games, but he raised the flop with his J5suited. Doesn't matter what he was doing, though, I lost this hand when I didn't fold on the flop.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#15 11 to 1

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 10:25 AM

View PostZach6668, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 8:57 AM, said:

http://www.neildewhu.../hand-converter^^That one works well too as a converter, if you are ever on a site that isn't PokerStars.I'm with Actuary though, I probably bet/fold that flop.
I agree with you both and I'm glad to read it. I was thinking people who are good at this would be pushing more risk-taking. I don't mind a gamble once in a while, you have to, but I'd rather just make sensible decisions. Thanks for these links, I wonder if we should ask a moderator to make a pinned folder for reference links? (Or is there one and I missed it?) So, I have to tell you all what happened last night. I was really tired and thought maybe I'd just watch some hands being played by a good player somewhere - I was watching this 1-2 $ table and saw this guy, just betting and betting this flop with an A and a K, then another A on the river and I'm thinking "Somebody's got trip Aces, maybe a full house, I wonder why the other guy keeps calling him?" Then they have the showdown. The caller won with pocket 9s, the bettor mucked. Huh? I watch three hands when I get in line - this guy played every hand almost, all the way, ATC. The game was above my level but I thought, maybe if I just sit quietly and wait for a big hand, I can have some of his money, too. So I'm tired, but now I'm in this game. This guy went broke and then went and got more money. Crazy. I made more money than I ever had in a single session, like $38. Which for a micro player like me is a vast fortune! There were like, three really bad players here, like people I'd see at really low micro limits. So, it was great for my confidence. I'm not the best player, but I can see if I looked for the right tables, and stopped trying to win and let the cards find me, I might do okay while I'm figuring it out.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley

#16 Zach6668

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 01:56 PM

View Post11 to 1, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 1:25 PM, said:

Thanks for these links, I wonder if we should ask a moderator to make a pinned folder for reference links? (Or is there one and I missed it?)
I'm the moderator. I pinned one at the top of every forum titled "... Forum Posting Guidelines".

View Post11 to 1, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 1:25 PM, said:

So, I have to tell you all what happened last night. I was really tired and thought maybe I'd just watch some hands being played by a good player somewhere - I was watching this 1-2 $ table and saw this guy, just betting and betting this flop with an A and a K, then another A on the river and I'm thinking "Somebody's got trip Aces, maybe a full house, I wonder why the other guy keeps calling him?" Then they have the showdown. The caller won with pocket 9s, the bettor mucked. Huh? I watch three hands when I get in line - this guy played every hand almost, all the way, ATC. The game was above my level but I thought, maybe if I just sit quietly and wait for a big hand, I can have some of his money, too. So I'm tired, but now I'm in this game. This guy went broke and then went and got more money. Crazy. I made more money than I ever had in a single session, like $38. Which for a micro player like me is a vast fortune! There were like, three really bad players here, like people I'd see at really low micro limits. So, it was great for my confidence. I'm not the best player, but I can see if I looked for the right tables, and stopped trying to win and let the cards find me, I might do okay while I'm figuring it out.
Good stuff.Fwiw, your hand with TT, where villain raised with J5 sooted on the flop. It's not necessarily a terrible play. It's like a semi-bluff, as he had a flush draw. He knows he doesn't have the best hand at the time, but the chances that you fold a better hand, ie TT-QQ, combined with the chance that he improves to the best hand are enough to warrant a raise in some situations. Not saying this is necessarily the right spot, but sometimes.Also, as you alluded to, he's just trying to get it in because he's out of money. That's entirely possible, and why I tend to call down broke players a lot more often, and a bit lighter. As I know Actuary has said before on these forums, don't trust broke players. That's usually an indication that they are really bad.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#17 Actuary

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 05:41 PM

View Post11 to 1, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 10:13 AM, said:

So my question for you and Zach is, would you have limped, raised or what preflop?
and I'm a nobody?******************************Raising is very standard here, preflpSo is the raise with Jh5h on the flop.His preflop call was bad thoughAs mentioned in Actuary's response above, the 3rd players call of two bets combined with the raise, signifies a beter hand is out there already combined with the chance of being outdrawn if ahead enough for you to fold the flopI had a guy lose.oh man, I can't even remeber... something like $150 in 45 minutes and I got $60 of it.Maniacs on super tilt are sweet. But I would not count on being able to find them regularly.

#18 Zach6668

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 05:55 PM

View PostActuary, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 8:41 PM, said:

and I'm a nobody?
Read it again.It says "for YOU and Zach"You = Actuary.Also, I didn't notice the PF question the first time.Ya, definitely a standard pf raise from any position, usually a 3-bet too.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#19 Actuary

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 05:58 PM

View PostZach6668, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 5:55 PM, said:

Read it again.It says "for YOU and Zach"You = Actuary.
I missed the "you"... and the "and"lol... I don't read too well.I might be too sensitive!:club:

#20 11 to 1

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Posted 15 February 2007 - 06:07 PM

View PostActuary, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007, 8:41 PM, said:

and I'm a nobody?
I was talking to you! ******************************

Quote

Raising is very standard here, preflpSo is the raise with Jh5h on the flop.His preflop call was bad thoughAs mentioned in Actuary's response above, the 3rd players call of two bets combined with the raise, signifies a beter hand is out there already combined with the chance of being outdrawn if ahead enough for you to fold the flopI had a guy lose.oh man, I can't even remeber... something like $150 in 45 minutes and I got $60 of it.Maniacs on super tilt are sweet. But I would not count on being able to find them regularly.
Too bad. The Poker Gods must've decided I needed a pick me up. So, OK. Still raising with TT preflop. I think I'll post my "game plan" a little later, maybe you wouldn't mind looking atit and adding suggestions.
When truth is nothing but the truth, its unnatural, it's an abstraction that resembles nothing in the real world. - Aldous Huxley




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