17 replies to this topic

[bdc30]

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $50.32
UTG+1: $116.25
CO: $103.30
Button: $100
SB: $32.35
BB: $11.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 5 5
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2 5 A ($2.5, 5 players)
SB bets $1, BB folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button raises to $10, SB folds, Hero ???.


So, I may have butchered this in a few spots. I didn't open for a raise utg (should we?) and I flat called the $1 bet on the flop by sb, hoping for someone with an ace behind me to maybe raise it up, or at least come along for the turn. When it gets hammered that hard by the button, what's the move now?

[Zach6668]

Being OOP sucks hard here.

You can't just call and hope to get it in on the turn as he may check a scare card through.

I'd be a lot more inclined to raise the weak bet in the first place (from the SB).

The problem now is that shoving here screams set, and button can probably fold his ace, or instacall with 34, although I doubt he has that here.

I haven't played NL in a long time. Trying to brush up a bit for Vegas, but what about calling and donking the turn?

[No_Neck]

Being OOP sucks hard here.

You can't just call and hope to get it in on the turn as he may check a scare card through.

I'd be a lot more inclined to raise the weak bet in the first place (from the SB).

The problem now is that shoving here screams set, and button can probably fold his ace, or instacall with 34, although I doubt he has that here.

I haven't played NL in a long time. Trying to brush up a bit for Vegas, but what about calling and donking the turn?

I would reraise, $20 more, there are some draws on board so I want to protect my hand.

If you are sure villian wouldn't pull this with a flush draw you could call.

[bdc30]

If we reraise 20 more (to 30 total) are we folding to a shove, with 60% of our chips in the pot?

If not, why not just push?

[No_Neck]

If we reraise 20 more (to 30 total) are we folding to a shove, with 60% of our chips in the pot?

If not, why not just push?

because you have two more streets to get the money in. I guess you could push I hate way overbetting the pot pushing though.

Maybe reraise 15.

[Jordan]

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $50.32
UTG+1: $116.25
CO: $103.30
Button: $100
SB: $32.35
BB: $11.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 5 5
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2 5 A ($2.5, 5 players)
SB bets $1, BB folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button raises to $10, SB folds, Hero ???.
So, I may have butchered this in a few spots. I didn't open for a raise utg (should we?) and I flat called the $1 bet on the flop by sb, hoping for someone with an ace behind me to maybe raise it up, or at least come along for the turn. When it gets hammered that hard by the button, what's the move now?

button most likely has AJ. I think this a great spot to just call and pray something like a 6 or higher comes off, and no spade. Then go for the trap. Hopefully he is not a good player and will put more money into the pot.

Also, I raise this up PF. I love getting small pairs in hold em', as they are the most deceptive. When you play a hand like this though and flop like this with an ace on board you really need to maximize profit....

Just remember, when you raise 55 utg and flop a set on a board like that, please lead something and pray he has Ax and sticks around. obviously mixing it up is appropriate as people will put you on KQ or other small pairs that are scared of the ace..but i've stacked more people leading into guys with ace on board and getting them stuck to TPTK or somethign.

anywho...I think you can go for a trap here, or if you think the guy is a total donkey and can't fold any ace postflop, i'd probably re-raise and hope he sticks it.

- Jordan

[Money022]

Flat calling PF is perfectly fine. Calling after the flop on this type of board is not fine. I would definitely raise OOP with a draw heavy board. With the way it was played, I would call the $10 reraise and hope the flush draw doesn't complete. Not because we're worried our opponent is drawing to it, but because it could be an action killer. If it's a not a spade then I try to get all-in on the turn.

[Snamuh]

button most likely has AJ. I think this a great spot to just call and pray something like a 6 or higher comes off, and no spade. Then go for the trap. Hopefully he is not a good player and will put more money into the pot.

Also, I raise this up PF. I love getting small pairs in hold em', as they are the most deceptive. When you play a hand like this though and flop like this with an ace on board you really need to maximize profit....

Just remember, when you raise 55 utg and flop a set on a board like that, please lead something and pray he has Ax and sticks around. obviously mixing it up is appropriate as people will put you on KQ or other small pairs that are scared of the ace..but i've stacked more people leading into guys with ace on board and getting them stuck to TPTK or somethign.

anywho...I think you can go for a trap here, or if you think the guy is a total donkey and can't fold any ace postflop, i'd probably re-raise and hope he sticks it.

- Jordan

I disagree here on a few points. While I agree that small pairs are generally the most deceptive hands that are most profitable for me, I don't like raising UTG with them. Low pocket pairs are more profitable when there are multiple people in the pot to give you your odds to hit your set. When someone raises UTG, they are usually credited for a good hand so people are more inclined to fold.

In this situation, A2 is a likely hand as I doubt villain has AQ or AK since he didnt bump it PF.

[bdc30]

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $50.32
UTG+1: $116.25
CO: $103.30
Button: $100
SB: $32.35
BB: $11.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 5 5
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 2 5 A ($2.5, 5 players)
SB bets $1, BB folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button raises to $10, SB folds, Hero ???.
So, I may have butchered this in a few spots. I didn't open for a raise utg (should we?) and I flat called the $1 bet on the flop by sb, hoping for someone with an ace behind me to maybe raise it up, or at least come along for the turn. When it gets hammered that hard by the button, what's the move now?

Okay then, I've seen a few replies, Hero flat called the raise to $10 on flop, here's the turn

Turn: 2

Hero??????????

[Snamuh]

Okay then, I've seen a few replies, Hero flat called the raise to $10 on flop, here's the turn

Turn: 2

Hero??????????

I check here and let him bet into you. The only hand he likely bets like that and beats you with is 22 and if that's the unlikely case then you get stacked to it. I'm fairly sure he bets into you if you check here. And if he is drawing, give him a chance to catch his flush.

If he is a really bad player, you could try a small blocking bet (I really hate this play) to induce him to reraise.

[Jordan]

I disagree here on a few points. While I agree that small pairs are generally the most deceptive hands that are most profitable for me, I don't like raising UTG with them. Low pocket pairs are more profitable when there are multiple people in the pot to give you your odds to hit your set. When someone raises UTG, they are usually credited for a good hand so people are more inclined to fold.

In this situation, A2 is a likely hand as I doubt villain has AQ or AK since he didnt bump it PF.

it's short handed. not raising any pair utg is just wrong, IMO.

most passive players don't get this.

it's called taking down uncontested money. You will pick up so many more pots playing aggresively with "good" hands from UTG as opposed to limping. You flop a set, what 1/7 times or somethign (i forget someone correct me) and the times you 'trap' someone in a short handed game is just risky. Ideally, you raise a small pair utg, get action from someone in position on you, and the BB and hope you flop a set on a nasty board like 4 T J where they have TPTK or something like that. It's much more deceptive than limping a small pair utg, as that usually gives away a hand.

Personally, when I play short handed and a guy limps utg or mp and I have the button or CO i'm raising to steal the pot, as I almost always put them on a small pair and I can take it away from them postflop.

short handed, it's not right to limp in with small pairs hoping other people limp in, they usually wont'. It's short handed. you can't open limp small pairs playing for set value. it's just a losing propostion.

full ring it is right to limp in EP with small pairs, and occasionaly raise them.

Its basically vice versa from short handed.

You're allowed to disagree, but in regards to short handed, you are just wrong...and I'll correct that as this is a short handed post.

And as for getting ppl to fold casue they think you raised a good hadn utg...well that's good. you want them to fold, you want them to be scared of you. But most pairs utg are the best hand short handed, so you want them to call with hands like KQ, KJ, AQ, etc etc. Not to mention, when you raise utg and a guy in MP/CO/BTN calls you with say 77-TT and you hold 22-66 and the lfop comes Qxx you lead into them and pick up most pots.

- Jordan

[Jordan]

hmm, for turn play...I'd like a bet like $15 here and start to get the pot nice and big so he has to call an all in on the river.

checking is not a bad play, but it sux if he is a good player and knows when to slow down as he may here...however, he may also put you a flush draw, which would not be wrong by the line you took, and he could try and push you off your hand with a stern bet...and then you have to act.

but really, I think if you bet $15, you'll either get a call, which is good, or a raise, which is ideal. He does not know where you are at in the hand, but will still have a hard time laying down most Ace hands.

Basically, you want to set up the river so the pot is large enough where you get to stack off.

- Jordan

[coremiller]

it's short handed. not raising any pair utg is just wrong, IMO.

i agree with this entirely, with maybe the slight exception of 22-55 if you have strong, tricky players acting behind you. but most of the time this is right.

we're raising here to win more money when we flop a set, yes, but just as good a reason to raise is that it sets us up as the aggressor in the hand, which is going to allow us to take down the pot on the flop quite often when we don't hit a set. plus, it adds deception to our play, so that we can get paid off when we do raise with big pairs.

[trystero]

hmm, for turn play...I'd like a bet like $15 here and start to get the pot nice and big so he has to call an all in on the river.

checking is not a bad play, but it sux if he is a good player and knows when to slow down as he may here...however, he may also put you a flush draw, which would not be wrong by the line you took, and he could try and push you off your hand with a stern bet...and then you have to act.

but really, I think if you bet $15, you'll either get a call, which is good, or a raise, which is ideal. He does not know where you are at in the hand, but will still have a hard time laying down most Ace hands.

Basically, you want to set up the river so the pot is large enough where you get to stack off.

- Jordan

I agree with building a big pot but IMO donkbetting the turn advertises a big hand unless villain knows we are aggressive with our draws. I doubt he has that information, and we've given him no idea that we are, calling twice on the flop. Now against a terrible player it doesn't matter because he has top pair therefore teh nutz so you'll get it in the middle no matter what. But suppose you're the one holding A8 here (excuse the questionable pf play). Villain open limped UTG and after you showed massive strength on the flop he overcalls and then donkbets the turn? What do you do without much of a read? You're probably folding because that screams set or aces up. We shouldn't give an observant player the opportunity to get away from this.

I go for a standard c/r here. If he's got aces up he's going to bet it and he'll likely call a push. If he has top pair we won't get much more from him if he's any good. If he checks through we can bet the river no matter what falls. In that case a good player will call a lot of value bets as we could be stealing. Bad players will probably bet the turn and after we push figure that they're 'pot committed.'

[Acid_Knight]

From the top...

Preflop, shorthanded it's usually correct to raise. It's also fine to flat call sometimes to vary your play a little bit. It's a good thing in a NLHE game to showdown all types of hands from all positions both raised and limped so it's harder for your opponents to define your hand by how you entered the pot with it.

On the flop, I think that you need to put in a small raise. The pot is small, the SB's bet is small and you have a BIG hand. All that being said, you also need to protect your hand from the multitude of draws present on that flop. When you choose to flat call and the button raises, it definitely looks like they have an A of some kind and are trying to protect it. By you choosing not to raise either bet on the flop (very risky IMO), you have definitely sold the fact that you're drawing.

When the turn comes, you're no longer worried about being drawn out on, so you really don't need to protect your hand anymore. You've sold the idea you're drawing, so keep selling it and check. He'll probably bet again to "protect" his hand and you can get a check raise in here. The important thing on the turn is to make sure that you get him committed to the hand with your raise, even if it has to be a min raise.

[bdc30]

For results, the deuce came on the turn pairing the board,

Hero checks, Villain shoves, Hero instacalls.

Villain shows 3 4 He hit the straight on the flop....Gg for him, good thing the board paired.

I really thought when the flop hit and he raised so big, the straight was a possibility. If I'd raised preflop, he would hopefully have folded the 3 4, thus not putting me in that kind of spot. On the flop when it came back to me raised to $10, I thought about shoveling but thought the ONLY hands that would call would be either of 3 4, a slowplayed AA, or at best 2 2. Anything else would have folded, I think. Anyways, all's well that ends well.

[Acid_Knight]

For results, the deuce came on the turn pairing the board,

Hero checks, Villain shoves, Hero instacalls.

Villain shows 3 4 He hit the straight on the flop....Gg for him, good thing the board paired.

I really thought when the flop hit and he raised so big, the straight was a possibility. If I'd raised preflop, he would hopefully have folded the 3 4, thus not putting me in that kind of spot. On the flop when it came back to me raised to $10, I thought about shoveling but thought the ONLY hands that would call would be either of 3 4, a slowplayed AA, or at best 2 2. Anything else would have folded, I think. Anyways, all's well that ends well.

In a shorthanded game, you'll get called by AJ there sometimes, A5, A2, maybe a flush draw. He could've had something like K3s for the flush draw and a gutshot.

There's no shame in getting it in on a flop like that with middle set. I think that his range for calling your flop reraise is larger than you think.

Either way, nice hand.

[NEtwowilldo]

Personally i come from the Phil Gordon school of always raise preflop when your first to the pot and here's why. First of all, youve invited multiway action, which is what you want with a hand like a small pair. However it becomes a problem because you don't have any information on the blinds. The small blind is getting pot odds to call with any two, so he could easily have a three, four, or worse a 3 4, or he could be weak leading with a flush draw. He could have aces up. You really have no idea. Just calling on the flop is a little questionable, IMO, since you are now giving anyone with a straight/flush draw odds to outdraw you. But you accomplished your goal since we can assume the button raised big with a hand like A J and has no spade in his hand, probably trying to push you off of a flush draw. Whether or not to shove at this point depends on your read of the player. Will he fold a big ace or is he a donk willing to go broke with one pair. If you raise a little bit and then he shoves, we can put him on 3 4. But at that point the pot is too big to fold in case the board pairs. I think all in is the right play on the flop, but next time put in a raise preflop, to keep your opponents guessing as to where you are at. Its easy to put you on a small set here since you limped in.

NH