11 replies to this topic

[Emptyeye]

Okay, so lately I've been playing nickel-dime Limit Omaha Hi/Lo on Stars. I've consistently had winning sessions over the short-term, but I don't think it's due to my skill so much as everyone else being even more terrible than me. I'd like to fix this and make the transition from "winning because I'm not that terrible and SOMEONE has to win" to a true WINNING O8 player. Right now, the biggest thing I need to work on is my pre-flop play, both in terms of starting hand selection and raising vs. calling, etc. I come from a Hold 'Em background, and my biggest leak is probably a tendency to overvalue big pocket pairs with no decent low potential--I'm starting to learn to throw them away, but I literally have to fight with myself to do it, almost as if I'm committing some huge poker crime thanks to my Hold 'Em playing. Yeah, occasionally I drop what will turn out to be a set, but I sigh and realize that most times I'll miss everything, and the set might not even hold up by the river.I'm also, for the most part, lost as to when, if ever, I should raise pre-flop. Omaha(Both Hi/Lo and regular) is very much a game where your hand is made post-flop, and so I like to limp in and try to see flops cheaply if possible. This works well enough for now (I am but one in a sea of calling stations, which means I almost have a license to play any four cards I want if I know I can get away from them post-flop. Not that I do this), but I know I should eventually learn what I should be raising with beyond the obvious AA23 double-suited.As a result of my pre-flop hand selection, what often ends up happening is that I'll hit the nuts one way and completely strike out the other, which leads to me just calling instead of raising (To keep as many people as possible in the pot). Because of this, I now have the little telephone icon next to my name in PT Omaha, which I'm willing to live with, but it somewhat annoys me nonetheless.Here are a ton of hands from the last two days. Please, tear them apart and tell me how I can extract maximum value from them, because as I said, I'm pretty lost right now.PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with 4:diamond:, K:club:, J:diamond:, J:club:. UTG calls, 2 folds, Emptyeye checks.It's a big pocket pair! But no low potential and only non-nut flush draws make me wary. Should I raise here anyway?Flop: (3.40 SB) T:diamond:, 7:diamond:, K:diamond: (3 players)Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, Button calls.Well, I hit the third nut flush, and fire at it to see where I am. Naturally, I pick up two callers and no information whatsoever.Turn: (3.20 BB) Q:spade: (3 players)Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, Button checks.Should I have fired again here? I picked up no resistance on the flop, but it's still only the third nuts. On the plus side, no low is possible.River: (3.20 BB) Q:heart: (3 players)Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, Button checks.And this card obviously scares the crap out of me.Final Pot: 3.20 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is SB with A:heart:, Q:heart:, 3:heart:, 2:club:. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Emptyeye completes, BB checks.Looking back, I think I should've raised this. Suited ace (Albeit one more heart than I'd really like), plus all sorts of low potential. This is what I need help with.Flop: (7 SB) J:heart:, 5:club:, 6:diamond: (7 players)Emptyeye checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.And again, looking back, I should probably have bet my nut low draw and (Non-nut) gutshot straight draw. And of course, I have backdoor draws as well.Turn: (3.50 BB) K:club: (7 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls.Pick up yet more draws, this time a gutshot straight draw to the nuts, and finally bet it.River: (8.50 BB) T:spade: (5 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP3 folds, Button calls.And I hit that draw, and obviously bet it out.Final Pot: 11.50 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with J:heart:, 8:heart:, A:diamond:, 3:spade:. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05. UTG posts a blind of $0.05. UTG (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.For once, I think my preflop decision of checking here was correct. A3 is really the best thing going for this hand, and the ace isn't even suited.Flop: (6 SB) 2:spade:, J:diamond:, T:spade: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB calls, Emptyeye calls, UTG folds.Not quite sure what I was thinking here. "Backdoor draws all over the place, top pair, SURE!" maybe.Turn: (4.50 BB) 6:club: (3 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG+2 bets, SB calls, Emptyeye calls.Well, I now have a nut low draw, so...SURE!River: (7.50 BB) 8:diamond: (3 players)SB bets, UTG+2 calls, SB calls.Hit a second pair to go with my nut low, and raise it on the river. I know my nut low is good, and I haven't seen any overly crazy betting, leading me to believe my jacks-up could be good as well.Final Pot: 13.50 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with A:heart:, T:diamond:, K:diamond:, 8:spade:. UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.Meh, some connectedness here I suppose, but nothing really optimal.Flop: (6 SB) A:diamond:, 4:club:, A:spade: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls.Well that's a nice flop for me. Obviously I bet out at at.Turn: (5.50 BB) 8:club: (5 players)SB bets, UTG calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, SB calls.Well, that puts a low on-board, but it also gives me the nut high. Amazingly, all but one person stays in, presumably orgasming at the thought of their hitting a low. Once I raised and everyone stayed in (Perhaps not the smartest of decisions, given I'm going for only half the pot), I saw no harm in a cap once SB 3-bet me.River: (23.50 BB) Q:club: (4 players)SB bets, CO calls, SB calls.Well, AQXX does me in, but from the action prior to this, I think my second-nut high is still good--another AXXX probably at least tries a raise on the flop. Again, amazingly, everyone stays in. Same logic as the turn, pretty much.Final Pot: 36.10 BBThese next few hands are from earlier today, where I managed to come out a winner despite playing something equivilent to my C- game. Missing full houses I had, thinking I had full houses, where I didn't, and so on.PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with 7:spade:, J:spade:, 7:heart:, 8:spade:. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.07. UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.Not a lot to like here outside of the free look at the flop.Flop: (6.40 SB) T:heart:, 2:club:, 7:diamond: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls.Right away, I know hitting my second set is going to be trouble. Nonetheless, I bet it to see where I'm at. Oh, what a shock, four callers and no information whatsoever.Turn: (5.70 BB) 5:diamond: (5 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls $0.13 (All-In), SB folds, Emptyeye calls, UTG calls.Bet out again when a low diamond call. The raise doesn't particularly concern me, as I know he's betting either the low, or (Less likely) something I'm still ahead of on the high end (2-pair or a smaller set).River: (13 BB) 9:diamond: (4 players, 1 all-in)Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Emptyeye calls, UTG calls.Gah. I hit my straight, but now there's a flush possibility, hence the check-call.Final Pot: 16 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is MP1 with A:spade:, 3:diamond:, 9:spade:, K:diamond:. UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Some potential in this hand. Suited ace, decent low draw (Though I'll need the deuce to fall to feel really safe).Flop: (5 SB) 2:club:, J:heart:, 4:heart: (5 players)SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Emptyeye calls, MP2 folds.There's that deuce I was talking about...I call, due to the nut low draw.Turn: (4 BB) 5:spade: (3 players)SB bets, SB calls, BB calls.Bingo. Stone-cold nut low, and being in position, I decide to raise, as barring 36 I have the hi as well.River: (10 BB) K:spade: (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Emptyeye bets, SB folds, BB folds.I have no problem with this result. Complete blank on the river, I bet, everyone folds.Final Pot: 11 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (7 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is SB with 5:diamond:, A:club:, 3:diamond:, 2:diamond:. 3 folds, CO calls.Raise with all sorts of low/straight potential.Flop: (5 SB) 2:club:, 7:spade:, 7:club: (2 players)Emptyeye bets, Emptyeye calls.Turn: (4.50 BB) A:spade: (2 players)Emptyeye checks, CO bets, Emptyeye calls.River: (6.50 BB) 4:diamond: (2 players)Emptyeye bets, CO calls.Don't ask me to explain why I played this this way, because I can't. What SHOULD I have done here?Final Pot: 12.50 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is SB with J:club:, A:spade:, 9:spade:, A:diamond:. MP1 posts a blind of $0.05. 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Emptyeye completes, BB checks.Should I raise this?Flop: (5 SB) A:club:, 2:spade:, 9:heart: (5 players)Emptyeye checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button checks.Hit the nuts and....check? I'll be honest, I had a brain fart through this whole hand, and thought I had flopped a full house. In other words, I was trying to let hands catch up to me (Though what could catch up to me on the turn? Two-pair or a smaller set, I guess). Still not the correct play, but, well, oops.Turn: (2.50 BB) 7:club: (5 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button folds.Wake up when a second club and low comes.River: (5.50 BB) K:diamond: (3 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, CO folds.And bet the blank on the river.Final Pot: 7.50 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is MP3 with 6:diamond:, 4:diamond:, A:diamond:, 3:diamond:. 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Lots of low potential, and uh, one diamond makes me a flush? seriously, I'm going off the low potential here.Flop: (6 SB) 2:spade:, 2:diamond:, 8:heart: (6 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.Once again, fortune smiles on me and the deuce comes out. I bet out with my nut low draw, and to see if anyone hit trips, quads, or the full house.Turn: (5 BB) 7:spade: (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls.Nut low hits and, given the chance, I bet it.River: (8 BB) 9:diamond: (3 players)BB checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls, BB calls.And again on the river.Final Pot: 11 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is UTG with 8:club:, 3:diamond:, A:diamond:, 2:club:. Emptyeye calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.I think I should've raised this. Low draws and a suited ace.Flop: (4 SB) 5:spade:, 2:spade:, 6:diamond: (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Emptyeye bets, MP1 folds, SB calls, BB folds.Go go counterfeit protection. Hit my nut low and, once again, come out firing given the chance.Turn: (3 BB) Q:diamond: (2 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, SB calls.And again.River: (5 BB) 6:heart: (2 players)SB bets, Emptyeye calls.SB wakes up, and figuring my high is no good (Sixes up,woo!), I decide to just call.Final Pot: 7 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (7 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with A:heart:, T:diamond:, 8:spade:, 4:spade:. MP1 posts a blind of $0.07. UTG calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.Yay free flops.Flop: (7.40 SB) J:diamond:, 2:spade:, T:spade: (7 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks.Not a lot happening for me there, but it's checked around. Woo!Turn: (3.70 BB) 8:diamond: (7 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.Well, I guess I'll bet my two-pair and see where I'm at.River: (9.70 BB) T:club: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.Well, I guess I'll bet my full house too!Final Pot: 11.70 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with A:spade:, 4:heart:, 5:diamond:, 7:spade:. UTG posts a blind of $0.05. UTG (poster) checks, 4 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.I have a suited ace, and some low potential, but not enough to place a lot of faith in it.Flop: (6 SB) 6:diamond:, 3:heart:, A:diamond: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls.Bet the OESD in spite of the two diamonds out there.Turn: (5.50 BB) 5:club: (5 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, MP3 calls, SB calls, Emptyeye calls.Hit my nut high and BET RAISE RAISE CAAAAAP. Everyone else is coming along for the ride, so why not.River: (21.50 BB) A:club: (4 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG bets, MP3 folds, SB calls, Emptyeye calls."Check/call? You ****ing idiot, didn't you see you backed into a full house?!" Well...no, actually, I didn't. Whoops. Suffice to say I play this differently when on my A game as opposed to the aforementioned C- game.Final Pot: 24.50 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is MP3 with A:diamond:, T:diamond:, A:spade:, J:spade:. UTG calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.OMG I RAISED!! Double-suited aces are raise-worthy in my book, despite the lack of low.Flop: (9.40 SB) 4:club:, Q:heart:, J:diamond: (4 players)BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Emptyeye calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.Call with the gutshot, actually getting close to the odds to do so.Turn: (6.70 BB) 7:diamond: (4 players)BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Emptyeye calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.Now I call my nut flush draw to go with that straight draw.River: (10.70 BB) 6:diamond: (4 players)BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.And decide to raise my nut high on the river. Bad move? Should I just call even though it's the river? Usually when I have one way locked up, I call down to the river and then raise. Should I just call even then?Final Pot: 14.70 BBPokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is CO with 4:club:, 9:diamond:, A:spade:, 3:spade:. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Suited ace and some low potential, woo.Flop: (7 SB) 9:club:, A:diamond:, T:heart: (7 players)SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Emptyeye calls.Hit top and bottom pair and call.Turn: (7 BB) 4:spade: (7 players)SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Emptyeye calls.Woo! Three pair! Actually, it gives me a few more outs to the full house, so I call that too.River: (14 BB) 9:heart: (7 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.Hit the third nuts, and the SB's check, combined with no action prior to this that would indicate AAxx or TTxx, tells me it's good here, so I raise.Final Pot: 20 BBWhew, so that's it. Mostly, like I said, I hit draws one way or manage to hit ridiculous draws--pretty much what I hate in Hold 'Em. I'd like to progress beyond this if possible. Thanks!

[akishore]

i'm working on a lengthy reply.just give me some time, it's a lot of hands.(just letting you know in case you're madly checking this thread every fifteen seconds for replies like i tend to do... :-) )aseem

[akishore]

just a little anecdote...last night, i accidentally sat down at an OMAHA PL table (not omaha hi/lo), and didn't realize it.ten minutes in, my buy-in was almost doubled, and i only then realized that it was only omaha hi.that shows the importance of playing scooping hands.(i was constantly wondering why i hadn't seen a qualifying low hand in so long. i mean, it was shorthanded so naturally high hands scoop many more pots, but still... )aseem

[Emptyeye]

Heheh, nice. Good ol' scooping hands. I've come very close to sitting at NL (As opposed to limit) Hold 'Em tables, myself, but at least I was playing the same game. :lol:Yeah, it is a lot of hands, but most of them repeat the same theme, so....

[akishore]

Emptyeye said:

Right now, the biggest thing I need to work on is my pre-flop play, both in terms of starting hand selection and raising vs. calling, etc. I come from a Hold 'Em background, and my biggest leak is probably a tendency to overvalue big pocket pairs with no decent low potential--I'm starting to learn to throw them away, but I literally have to fight with myself to do it, almost as if I'm committing some huge poker crime thanks to my Hold 'Em playing. Yeah, occasionally I drop what will turn out to be a set, but I sigh and realize that most times I'll miss everything, and the set might not even hold up by the river.

- all four cards should work. if you have even one dangler, fold it (exceptions being something like A23x, A24x ace-suited, AA2x, AK2x double-suited, things like that).- i fold AA97. that says something? overpairs suck, and hands like that only work one by hitting a rare set which 4 out of 5 times will usually not win the high. in general, only 10-10 (marginally strong) through A-A are good pocket pairs for top boats, but even they should have some more coordination, like being suited, having some low cards, etc.- middle cards suck. you should know why (ask me to explain if you don't).- ALL FOUR CARDS SHOULD WORK TOGETHER. fold A873 ace-suited. it looks tempting, but it sucks.- you should almost always be playing scooping hands. if you're playing a hand in only one direction, it should be for cheap (that means only late position in an aggressive game), and it should be PREMIUM in that direction, e.g. A235, A246, KKJT, KJQT, AQQJ. premium low hands should all be 6 or lower and unpaired. premium high hands should all be T or higher and preferably be ace-suited/super-connecting/paired.- almost all scooping hands need an ace. there are few exceptions, and very few: KK32, KQ32 king-suited/double-suited, JJ32, hell i can't really think of many other similar hands. low-only hands should almost always have an ace, and again, very few exceptions being 2345, 23x6. high-only hands can be without an ace if they're premium.- A2 is much stronger than A3 and 23. A3 and 23 are playable when they have good support like in A346, AKK3, 2345, KK23, etc. but generally, you want A2. with anything else, you have to draw to four outs to make sure you have the nut low, and we all know o8 is a game of drawing to the nuts. with A2 + counterfeit protection, you're almost insured of having the nut low if three low cards land.- just like you don't play AAxx, don't play A2xx when the "xx" part sucks! some say that any A2xx ace-suited is playable, but i don't agree. i prefer to wait for strong ace-suited A2xx hands, but i'm on the fence about this.- having an ace is important.- all four cards should work together.- almost all the hands you play should be strong scooping hands.- read those last three again.

Emptyeye said:

I'm also, for the most part, lost as to when, if ever, I should raise pre-flop. Omaha(Both Hi/Lo and regular) is very much a game where your hand is made post-flop, and so I like to limp in and try to see flops cheaply if possible. This works well enough for now (I am but one in a sea of calling stations, which means I almost have a license to play any four cards I want if I know I can get away from them post-flop. Not that I do this), but I know I should eventually learn what I should be raising with beyond the obvious AA23 double-suited.

raising has two functions: to thin the field, and to build the pot. different types of hands work best with different types of raises:- scooping hands like A234 ace-suited, A346 ace-suited: build the pot. this hand works best low and sometimes scoops high with flushes and wheels, but not much else besides flushes and wheels (which are both rare). you're building the pot for your low end mainly, but you play it because of its scooping potential.- scooping hands like AA23 and AK23: both functions work. these work great heads-up and three-way, but they also work great eight-way. definitely raise anywhere, because whatever the result, you profit.- low-only hands like A234 unsuited, 2346, A233: build the pot only. you're aiming to win only half, but you have strong equity for that half, so you don't want to push people out.- high-only hands like AAKK, AAQQ, AAKQ: raise to thin the field. you don't want a bunch of low + straight + flush draws on the flop with you. this hand obviously is very strong heads-up and short-handed.- high-only hands like KQJT, AQQJ, AATT: these types of high-only hands work better in big pots (do you see the difference between this type and the type above?). you want a bunch of low-only hands to call pre-flop so that if three high cards land (or two high cards), you have a lot of dead money in the pot. since these hands need to improve significantly to have a chance, you don't want to be raising. don't raise at all with these hands, see a cheap flop.

Emptyeye said:

As a result of my pre-flop hand selection, what often ends up happening is that I'll hit the nuts one way and completely strike out the other, which leads to me just calling instead of raising (To keep as many people as possible in the pot). Because of this, I now have the little telephone icon next to my name in PT Omaha, which I'm willing to live with, but it somewhat annoys me nonetheless.

false brain recognition. this leads to your false logic.the strong scooping hands you play have high equity in both directions. just as you raise AK and AJs and other hands in hold'em because they have high equity, you raise your scooping hands because they have high equity.but first understand the two different functions of raising, and understand which hands serve either function better. you're probably not losing many customers raising in these no-fold-em micro limit o8 games, so raise the hell out of your premium hands.most likely, you're just building the pot, which is even better for you since you mostly hit only one direction. don't play passively in this game.

Emptyeye said:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with 4:diamond:, K:club:, J:diamond:, J:club:. UTG calls, 2 folds, Emptyeye checks.It's a big pocket pair! But no low potential and only non-nut flush draws make me wary. Should I raise here anyway?Flop: (3.40 SB) T:diamond:, 7:diamond:, K:diamond: (3 players)Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, Button calls.Well, I hit the third nut flush, and fire at it to see where I am. Naturally, I pick up two callers and no information whatsoever.Turn: (3.20 BB) Q:spade: (3 players)Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, Button checks.Should I have fired again here? I picked up no resistance on the flop, but it's still only the third nuts. On the plus side, no low is possible.River: (3.20 BB) Q:heart: (3 players)Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, Button checks.And this card obviously scares the crap out of me.Final Pot: 3.20 BB

pre-flop: don't even think about raising. this hand looks pretty hold'em players, but realize that this sucks (non-nut flush cards suck, you have a dangling 4, your hand only works strongly in maybe two ways), and you just want a free flop from the BB. for future reference, you fold this hand to any raise in the BB.flop: the bet is fine. and you got plenty of information. two passive calls means either you're way behind or way ahead. most likely both people are drawing to backdoor lows, or one person is slowplaying (terribly) the nut flush.turn: bet again. no low is possible, so you'll probably get both people to fold, and only weak highs (non-flushes) to call. it's true that you don't have the nuts, but you're missing value bets against hands like KTxx.river: check is fine. you could be beaten by a boat now, and you don't want to be raised here.

Emptyeye said:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is SB with A:heart:, Q:heart:, 3:heart:, 2:club:. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Emptyeye completes, BB checks.Looking back, I think I should've raised this. Suited ace (Albeit one more heart than I'd really like), plus all sorts of low potential. This is what I need help with.Flop: (7 SB) J:heart:, 5:club:, 6:diamond: (7 players)Emptyeye checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.And again, looking back, I should probably have bet my nut low draw and (Non-nut) gutshot straight draw. And of course, I have backdoor draws as well.Turn: (3.50 BB) K:club: (7 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls.Pick up yet more draws, this time a gutshot straight draw to the nuts, and finally bet it.River: (8.50 BB) T:spade: (5 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP3 folds, Button calls.And I hit that draw, and obviously bet it out.Final Pot: 11.50 BB

pre-flop: yeah, you missed an easy raise. these are the hands you wait rounds for.flop: again, you missed a value bet with your protected nut low draw and other draws. get in the habit of betting with four-to-the-nut-low with counterfeit protection. if you don't have protection, bet with it if there are 5+ others in the pot. these nut low hands have strong equity. don't get crazy with it though (i.e. only call a raise, but bet out if it's checked to you, and raise in position for a free card).turn: good bet.river: terrible bet! how could you bet the nuts like that?? haven't you seen bill fillmaff's video?

Emptyeye said:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converterPreflop: Emptyeye is BB with J:heart:, 8:heart:, A:diamond:, 3:spade:. MP2 posts a blind of $0.05. UTG posts a blind of $0.05. UTG (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.For once, I think my preflop decision of checking here was correct. A3 is really the best thing going for this hand, and the ace isn't even suited.Flop: (6 SB) 2:spade:, J:diamond:, T:spade: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB calls, Emptyeye calls, UTG folds.Not quite sure what I was thinking here. "Backdoor draws all over the place, top pair, SURE!" maybe.Turn: (4.50 BB) 6:club: (3 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG+2 bets, SB calls, Emptyeye calls.Well, I now have a nut low draw, so...SURE!River: (7.50 BB) 8:diamond: (3 players)SB bets, UTG+2 calls, SB calls.Hit a second pair to go with my nut low, and raise it on the river. I know my nut low is good, and I haven't seen any overly crazy betting, leading me to believe my jacks-up could be good as well.Final Pot: 13.50 BB

pre-flop: correct raise and correct analysis. A3 is the only thing worth playing in that hand.flop: in all honesty, it's a bad call, but if i was in that hand, i might be tempted to stay in too. no wait, i wouldn't! it looks so tempting with all those draws, but your total outs are probably around 3 or 4, and the pot is almost never big enough to chase that few outs, especially when you're only going to win half the pot in most cases (so your outs actually drop to 1.5 or 2). it's a leak, get out of that habit of calling. you backdoored a low, but much more often than not, it won't happen. selective memory makes you think it will and makes you make those calls, and that's the same reason fish play backdoor straights/flushes in HE and lose so much money.turn: fine.river: don't get crazy, you're probably quartered. your jacks-up are PROBABLY not good, but it's possible. still, it's not good enough to be capping with. any set beats you, there are two possible straights, and JT also beats you. unless the pot is four-way or more, or you have a stronger high along with a nut low, don't get crazy.i have to run, i'll get to the rest of the hands later tonight.aseem

[obs]

Edit you post, paste it in notepad, and replace color: with color=. Then update it.

[akishore]

[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is BB with A:heart:' date=' T:diamond:, K:diamond:, 8:spade:. UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.Meh, some connectedness here I suppose, but nothing really optimal.Flop: (6 SB) A:diamond:, 4:club:, A:spade: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls.Well that's a nice flop for me. Obviously I bet out at at.Turn: (5.50 BB) 8:club: (5 players)SB bets, UTG calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, SB calls.Well, that puts a low on-board, but it also gives me the nut high. Amazingly, all but one person stays in, presumably orgasming at the thought of their hitting a low. Once I raised and everyone stayed in (Perhaps not the smartest of decisions, given I'm going for only half the pot), I saw no harm in a cap once SB 3-bet me.River: (23.50 BB) Q:club: (4 players)SB bets, CO calls, SB calls.Well, AQXX does me in, but from the action prior to this, I think my second-nut high is still good--another AXXX probably at least tries a raise on the flop. Again, amazingly, everyone stays in. Same logic as the turn, pretty much.Final Pot: 36.10 BB[/quote]you played this great.normally (e.g. in HE), you wouldn't want to raise a bet from your immediate right with the nuts, but this is o8, and no one respects raises, so raising for value is fine when no one will fold to it.if this was a tighter game, a call would be better, of course. but like i said, o8 at these micro limits are never tight.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (8 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is BB with 7:spade:' date=' J:spade:, 7:heart:, 8:spade:. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.07. UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.Not a lot to like here outside of the free look at the flop.Flop: (6.40 SB) T:heart:, 2:club:, 7:diamond: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls.Right away, I know hitting my second set is going to be trouble. Nonetheless, I bet it to see where I'm at. Oh, what a shock, four callers and no information whatsoever.Turn: (5.70 BB) 5:diamond: (5 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls $0.13 (All-In), SB folds, Emptyeye calls, UTG calls.Bet out again when a low diamond call. The raise doesn't particularly concern me, as I know he's betting either the low, or (Less likely) something I'm still ahead of on the high end (2-pair or a smaller set).River: (13 BB) 9:diamond: (4 players, 1 all-in)Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Emptyeye calls, UTG calls.Gah. I hit my straight, but now there's a flush possibility, hence the check-call.Final Pot: 16 BB[/quote]played this fine. not sure if you realize it, but your turn call (after UTG+1 raised) was great. very few cards come on the river that leave you with a strong hand. any A, 3 or 4 puts three to a wheel. any 6, 8, or J puts three to a straight. any diamond puts three to a flush. only a non-diamond 9 gives you the nuts while the only relatively safe cards are non-diamond K and Q. although you have the second-nuts (high) on the turn, you can't go crazy with it because the river will drastically change your hand, and a majority of the deck kills your hand. river is a good crying call, especially three-handed, but of course fold if you're facing two cold.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (8 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is MP1 with A:spade:' date=' 3:diamond:, 9:spade:, K:diamond:. UTG calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Some potential in this hand. Suited ace, decent low draw (Though I'll need the deuce to fall to feel really safe).Flop: (5 SB) 2:club:, J:heart:, 4:heart: (5 players)SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Emptyeye calls, MP2 folds.There's that deuce I was talking about...I call, due to the nut low draw.Turn: (4 BB) 5:spade: (3 players)SB bets, SB calls, BB calls.Bingo. Stone-cold nut low, and being in position, I decide to raise, as barring 36 I have the hi as well.River: (10 BB) K:spade: (3 players)SB checks, BB checks, Emptyeye bets, SB folds, BB folds.I have no problem with this result. Complete blank on the river, I bet, everyone folds.Final Pot: 11 BB[/quote]pre-flop: this hand is playable, but it would be MUCH stronger if it were A-2 or if the 9s were a 4s, 5s, or 6s. i know it's tough to lay down these hands, and it's certainly playable in the passive game that your table seems to be, but if you're in a more aggressive game, consider laying this down in early/mid position. if you also want to just drill yourself and have a super-tight session (play only the most premium hands out of the blinds--namely, hands where all four cards are strong and work together), lay this down specifically because of the 9, the A-3, and the lack of counterfeit protection. in your circumstances, it was a fine call.flop: raise here for a free card since the game is passive. you have four outs to an insured scooping hand (you'll definitely get at least half of the pot if a 5 lands since you can't get counterfeited after that, and you'll likely get the whole pot) and 16 outs to the nut low. you would raise with the nut flush draw here, right? i hope so. so do the same with nut low draws to a wheel and nut low non-wheel draws with counterfeit protection.turn/river: fine.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (7 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is SB with 5:diamond:' date=' A:club:, 3:diamond:, 2:diamond:. 3 folds, CO calls.Raise with all sorts of low/straight potential.Flop: (5 SB) 2:club:, 7:spade:, 7:club: (2 players)Emptyeye bets, Emptyeye calls.Turn: (4.50 BB) A:spade: (2 players)Emptyeye checks, CO bets, Emptyeye calls.River: (6.50 BB) 4:diamond: (2 players)Emptyeye bets, CO calls.Don't ask me to explain why I played this this way, because I can't. What SHOULD I have done here?Final Pot: 12.50 BB[/quote]pre-flop: this is going to sound ridiculous, but hear me out. don't raise with this hand when the pot is short-handed. at best, it will be three-handed, and at worst, it's heads-up, and you don't have a strong enough hand for heads-up. short-handed pots are all about scooping hands, specifically hands that are strong high and have a decent low draw. your hand is low-only with the rare case that you get a wheel. if 3 or 4 others had entered the pot before you, this becomes a raising hand to build the pot. but here, the pot is short-handed, so you don't want to raise with a low-only hand. if the ace were suited, the decision would be closer and a raise would be correct. if the ace were suited and a 5 was instead a 2, 3, A, K or Q, a raise would be even better since you had a better high hand. here, i would just complete. refer to the above post about what types of hands prefer what types of raises.flop: fine. bet with 7's up ace kicker and nut low draw. as i said, heads-up and short-handed is all about scooping, and unless villian has a 7 with the same A-3 nut low draw, you're looking to scoop this pot. more likely, villian only has a chance to beat you in one direction, so a bet here is correct. when you get raised, a call is more correct, because it seems like villian has a 7, so you want to slow down once you feel you're in contention for only half the pot now.turn: check-call, fine. if the 7 wasn't paired and the board was maybe J-7-2-A, a check-raise would be better since you had a strong aces-up for high.river: fine.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is SB with J:club:' date=' A:spade:, 9:spade:, A:diamond:. MP1 posts a blind of $0.05. 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Emptyeye completes, BB checks.Should I raise this?Flop: (5 SB) A:club:, 2:spade:, 9:heart: (5 players)Emptyeye checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Button checks.Hit the nuts and....check? I'll be honest, I had a brain fart through this whole hand, and thought I had flopped a full house. In other words, I was trying to let hands catch up to me (Though what could catch up to me on the turn? Two-pair or a smaller set, I guess). Still not the correct play, but, well, oops.Turn: (2.50 BB) 7:club: (5 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button folds.Wake up when a second club and low comes.River: (5.50 BB) K:diamond: (3 players)Emptyeye bets, BB calls, CO folds.And bet the blank on the river.Final Pot: 7.50 BB[/quote]pre-flop: definitely not a raising hand with limpers already in the pot. completing is correct. even if you were UTG in a tight game where people respected EP raises, this would still not be a raising hand to thin the field. why? the 9 (too low) is a dangler, and the offsuit jack isn't preferable, though it's not too bad. this is an easy raise in a shorthanded game of course.flop: if you just messed up, fine, but of course bet that hand out in the future. note that in this game at this level, you should almost never slowplay. there are some exceptions, but they're very rare. it's a tough topic, but sets are definitely never the hands to slowplay in this game.turn/river: fine.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is MP3 with 6:diamond:' date=' 4:diamond:, A:diamond:, 3:diamond:. 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Lots of low potential, and uh, one diamond makes me a flush? seriously, I'm going off the low potential here.Flop: (6 SB) 2:spade:, 2:diamond:, 8:heart: (6 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.Once again, fortune smiles on me and the deuce comes out. I bet out with my nut low draw, and to see if anyone hit trips, quads, or the full house.Turn: (5 BB) 7:spade: (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls.Nut low hits and, given the chance, I bet it.River: (8 BB) 9:diamond: (3 players)BB checks, Emptyeye bets, CO calls, BB calls.And again on the river.Final Pot: 11 BB[/quote]great hand, best played yet.the pre-flop call, believe it or not, is completely correct. A-3-4-6 rainbow is a playable low-only hand, and A-3-4-6 all diamonds is actually stronger, even though two of your diamond outs are already gone.your post-flop play was correct.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (8 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is UTG with 8:club:' date=' 3:diamond:, A:diamond:, 2:club:. Emptyeye calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.I think I should've raised this. Low draws and a suited ace.Flop: (4 SB) 5:spade:, 2:spade:, 6:diamond: (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Emptyeye bets, MP1 folds, SB calls, BB folds.Go go counterfeit protection. Hit my nut low and, once again, come out firing given the chance.Turn: (3 BB) Q:diamond: (2 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, SB calls.And again.River: (5 BB) 6:heart: (2 players)SB bets, Emptyeye calls.SB wakes up, and figuring my high is no good (Sixes up,woo!), I decide to just call.Final Pot: 7 BB[/quote]don't ever think about raising this hand pre-flop. this is a playable hand, of course, but the dangling 8 prevents this hand from being premium. if it was an A, K, Q, 6, 5, or 4, this would be a raising hand. however, unless it were an A, K, or Q, you still don't raise this hand from EP. remember the different types of hands? A23x, where x is a low card, is a pot-building hand, not a field-thinning hand. you never raise pot-building hands from EP for the same reason you might raise JTs on the button in HE after 6 limpers but never from UTG. anyway, just remember that in general, raising hands always have 4 coordinated cards. no raising hand should have a dangler in there, and yours does.flop was fine.the turn is fine because of the Qd. if the turn were not a diamond and did not give you a better hand than a pair of dueces (i.e. it didn't give you 8's up or trip 2's or a wheel), don't bet here. why?this is a key concept in any hi/lo game, so listen up:when you're heads-up in a hand, you play to scoop or three-quarter. i don't know if you know any stud hi/lo, but i'll give an example.say i have (2)(3)6-8-8 on fifth street heads-up against (x)(x)A-5-8, i am folding to a bet in a heartbeat. i don't know if my pair of 8's are good (he might have a pair of aces) or if my low draw is good right now. i might have the best high hand or the best low draw right now, but the fact is that by showdown, i have no idea which side he'll win. he might have A-2 in the pocket so that he has the best low draw and the best high hand. or, i might never complete my draw only to find out that he's had aces up the whole time (or he might hit another ace). i might complete my low draw only to find out that he hit a wheel by showdown.understand?heads-up, find reasons to fold, and only stay in if one of the following is true:1. you have a very strong hand in one direction.2. you have a good chance of scooping.3. you have decent hands in both directions and are sure that you will win at least one.on fourth street, if a diamond didn't fall and you didn't improve, check that turn. you're losing a lot of money if he also has the nut low with a better high hand. you're also losing a lot of money if you get counterfeited on the river and he scoops with a wheel. specifically because you hit a diamond on the turn, betting out is correct because you now have a monster scooping possibility.on that note, flushes are very strong draws in o8 because you can't be quartered. so if you hit the flush on the turn, for example, you're betting out non-stop heads-up, and with any sort of low, you're capping the betting, because you have a premium hand in one direction with a good chance of scooping.anyway, good river call. too many people raise there with just the nut low, so you made a good analysis in realizing that you only had the low and almost never the high, so a call was correct.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (7 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is BB with A:heart:' date=' T:diamond:, 8:spade:, 4:spade:. MP1 posts a blind of $0.07. UTG calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.Yay free flops.[b']Flop:[/b] (7.40 SB) J:diamond:, 2:spade:, T:spade: (7 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button checks.Not a lot happening for me there, but it's checked around. Woo!Turn: (3.70 BB) 8:diamond: (7 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.Well, I guess I'll bet my two-pair and see where I'm at.River: (9.70 BB) T:club: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.Well, I guess I'll bet my full house too!Final Pot: 11.70 BB[/quote]don't let results fool you into thinking that you made the correct play.the turn bet was terrible.i know it's tempting to bet when it gets checked around and you turn two pair with the second-nut low, but it's terribly wrong.o8 is a game of drawing to the nuts, and you get paid off when all the second-best and third-best and eighteenth-best hands call you down, and you had one of those eighteenth-best hands right now. i'll explain:1. a straight is possible on the board.2. you're going to get called by every low draw possible. almost half the time, the river will complete the low draw. since you are not drawing to the nut low, you will lose that half often, and your tens up will win the high half maybe once out of 50 hands.3. the board is double-suited. any spade or diamond (there's 11 of each left unseen) completes a flush, so there's 22 cards out of an unseen 44 cards (half the deck) that kill your high, and only 2 of them (2s, 3d) give you the nut low to at least win you the low half (or quarter).4. further, any 9, 7, or Q puts a four-straight on the board, so add 6 more cards that kill your tens-up, and only a 7 will leave you with at least a low which won't even be the nut low.5. plus, if someone doesn't have the straight now, any 6, K or A puts three-straight on the board. again, add 6 more cards to the deck that leave you with a very weak high and a weak or counterfeited low.6. any J or 2 pairing also kills your high, so there's 6 more cards you don't want.so out of an unseen 44 cards, 22+6+6+6 = 40 cards that leave you with a terrible hand.guess what the remaining four cards are?yep, the two tens and the two 8's.you effectively hit a four-outter on the river to win the hand.don't bet the turn again. get into the habit of thinking about what cards can come off on the next street that massacre your hand. it's a very important concept in o8, much more important than in HE. realize that virtually any card in the deck leaves you with a very weak high and either a weak low or no low at all.on a related note, don't just bet when everyone checks. you should know this, but this is not a game where you'll steal a pot more often than once in 200 hands. check this turn and fold to a bet. if you see a free river, all the better. you're effectively chasing 4 outs to the high that isn't even the nuts, and 4 outs to the nut low. since any of those 8 cards will most likely give you only half the pot, your pot odds are cut in half, so you clearly don't have the equity to bet.again, think about future streets from now on. this was a terrible bet.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is BB with A:spade:' date=' 4:heart:, 5:diamond:, 7:spade:. UTG posts a blind of $0.05. UTG (poster) checks, 4 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Emptyeye checks.I have a suited ace, and some low potential, but not enough to place a lot of faith in it.Flop: (6 SB) 6:diamond:, 3:heart:, A:diamond: (6 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls.Bet the OESD in spite of the two diamonds out there.Turn: (5.50 BB) 5:club: (5 players)SB checks, Emptyeye bets, MP3 calls, SB calls, Emptyeye calls.Hit my nut high and BET RAISE RAISE CAAAAAP. Everyone else is coming along for the ride, so why not.River: (21.50 BB) A:club: (4 players)SB checks, Emptyeye checks, UTG bets, MP3 folds, SB calls, Emptyeye calls."Check/call? You ****ing idiot, didn't you see you backed into a full house?!" Well...no, actually, I didn't. Whoops. Suffice to say I play this differently when on my A game as opposed to the aforementioned C- game.Final Pot: 24.50 BB[/quote]pre-flop: fold to a raise, just to note. of course don't raise with this weak hand from the BB.flop: bad bet for a few reasons. unless a 2 comes, you are only in contention for half the pot. if your remaining 7 outs come (2 non-diamond 4's, 3 remaining 5's, and 2 non-diamond 7's), you will have the nut high, but you are only getting half the pot. when you're drawing to half the pot, cut your outs in half. so your total outs are 2 (for a scoop) + 3.5 = 5.5. this is clearly not enough outs to give you equity enough to bet. check-call this.turn: fine. although about 20 cards can come off on the river that leave you with the non-nut high and a definite bad low, raising and capping is still correct because of your equity. plus, you have a redraw to a wheel for the low (about 1 or 2 outs for the 2 since someone probably already has a wheel with 2-4 and a 2 will probably earn you only half of the low half) as well as a boat (4 outs for that), so you have good equity to be raising here. but do realize that there are times in o8 where you don't want to be raising and capping with the nuts, and you might consider folding the nuts.that sounds ridiculous, but i kid you not, there are times (especially in PLO8) where folding the nuts (particularly the nut low) can be correct. i won't get into it here, but i'd suggest reading ss2's o8 section, it talks about it in detail. it's also much more applicable in PLO8 than in limit o8, so don't worry about it too much.i'll ignore the river play of course. mistakes happen.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (10 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is MP3 with A:diamond:' date=' T:diamond:, A:spade:, J:spade:. UTG calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.OMG I RAISED!! Double-suited aces are raise-worthy in my book, despite the lack of low.Flop: (9.40 SB) 4:club:, Q:heart:, J:diamond: (4 players)BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Emptyeye calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.Call with the gutshot, actually getting close to the odds to do so.Turn: (6.70 BB) 7:diamond: (4 players)BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Emptyeye calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.Now I call my nut flush draw to go with that straight draw.River: (10.70 BB) 6:diamond: (4 players)BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.And decide to raise my nut high on the river. Bad move? Should I just call even though it's the river? Usually when I have one way locked up, I call down to the river and then raise. Should I just call even then?Final Pot: 14.70 BB[/quote]pre-flop: the raise is okay. double-suited aces aren't always raisable. AA96 is not raisable, and i would consider folding it even if it was double-suited (although i would probably play it in a passive game or in an unraised pot in late position). it was convenient that UTG strangely folded, because a thinner field gives you a better chance with winning with AAxx, but because it has JT in it (a great straight drawing combination), it also works in multiway pots, so that's why this is one of the few high hands that's okay to build big pots with. this is an okay hand to raise from anywhere, like AA23, because whatever it accomplishes, you're okay with.after the pre-flop raise, though, every street was played badly, IMHO. no offense meant of course, but you played it astonishingly passively.flop: raise here. why?1. you have the best overpair on a rainbow, fairly uncoordinated board, along with a strong gutshot and backdoor boat + flush draws. only a set beats you, and not many cards come off on the turn that kill your hand. you have strong equity here. this is2. protect your hand. there's a low card on the board, so make backdoor low draws either fold or call unprofitably. you want low draws to fold so that you don't lose half the pot.3. even if your aces aren't good, you can get a free card on the turn. you have 3 hidden outs to aces up if you're up against two pair, plus your gutshot outs and 2 outs for a higher set, along with about 2 outs for your backdoor draws.turn: raise again. you probably still have the best hand, you definitely have the best draw, and you want to charge the lows again if there are still three others in the pot.river: definitely don't call, definitely raise. overcalls are much more relevant in HE than in microlimit o8, since people will call two cold with all sorts of hands. if the player folds to your raise, he would have folded anyway, so it's more valuable in this type of game to raise, even when the bettor is to your immediate right.btw, you didn't have one way locked up, and even when you do, you should specifically be raising and building the pot, not calling it down.[quote name='Emptyeye]PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) [url="http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi"]converter[/url]Preflop: Emptyeye is CO with 4:club:' date=' 9:diamond:, A:spade:, 3:spade:. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Suited ace and some low potential, woo.Flop: (7 SB) 9:club:, A:diamond:, T:heart: (7 players)SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Emptyeye calls.Hit top and bottom pair and call.Turn: (7 BB) 4:spade: (7 players)SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Emptyeye calls.Woo! Three pair! Actually, it gives me a few more outs to the full house, so I call that too.River: (14 BB) 9:heart: (7 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.Hit the third nuts, and the SB's check, combined with no action prior to this that would indicate AAxx or TTxx, tells me it's good here, so I raise.Final Pot: 20 BB[/quote]pre-flop: barely playable. the 9 sucks, but the fact that the ace is suited and that you have counterfeit protection for your A-3 is at least a little redeemable. playable at these limits, but fold it in EP and MP in a more aggressive game.flop: call is okay. you have 4 outs to a strong hand. while none of them give you the nuts, all of them aim to scoop the pot since a low will not be possible if you hit any of your 4 outs. getting 13-to-1, easy call.turn: again, getting 13-to-1, easy call with 6 clean outs to scoop, though none of them give you the nuts, and the two 4's are actually somewhat weak. nevertheless, this pot is definitely big enough to play for.river: good raise and good read. you have the third-nuts, but chances are, it's good. better raise because any hand that folds would have most likely folded anyway because of the missed backdoor low.if you need any more advice, feel free to ask.not to advertise my own posts, but read my o8 guide if you haven't already. ask me if you need the link, i'll dig it up.also read the o8 section of ss2 if you get a chance, it's pretty strong.finally, there are a bunch of gold-mine articles online about how to crush the low limit o8 game. i'll dig up some links if you need.good luck,aseem

[ddudley]

This is a great post. Thanks to you both for putting this out. I'm still working my way through it but I had a few questions...Aseem - What is the best Omaha book to read? Can you get good at Omaha by reading (like hold 'em) or do you need to play thousands of hands to get good?I seem to have a lot better understanding of how to play O8 than OHi. That seems counter-intuative to me. Shouldn't O8 be more complicated and thus harder to get good at? Am I just fooling myself with that thinking.Thanks for all your great input here. Every single post I have ever seen by you has been thoughtful, informative and polite. We need more members like you! :-)

[akishore]

ddudley said:

This is a great post. Thanks to you both for putting this out. I'm still working my way through it but I had a few questions...Aseem - What is the best Omaha book to read? Can you get good at Omaha by reading (like hold 'em) or do you need to play thousands of hands to get good?I seem to have a lot better understanding of how to play O8 than OHi. That seems counter-intuative to me. Shouldn't O8 be more complicated and thus harder to get good at? Am I just fooling myself with that thinking.Thanks for all your great input here. Every single post I have ever seen by you has been thoughtful, informative and polite. We need more members like you! :-)

no problem. not to sound corny, but giving advice and analyzing others' hands really helps me out as well. a lot of other strategy posters (wrto, kdawg, smash, etc.) can confirm this--teaching makes you a much better player.for o8, i have only read one physical book, and that's super/system 2. the o8 section by bobby baldwin is pretty solid, and it's very reliable. i would strongly suggest reading it once you get some hours in (if you're new and read it, you're not going to understand a lot of it).as for reading versus playing, i think o8 is a game where hours are much more valuable than in any other game, specifically HE. with HE, you can really get pretty decent just from reading some books (specifically, at the low limits), because the game is fairly simple and very intuitive.with o8 on the other hand, there are so many subtleties and complexities that you really have to start recognizing them at the table. a book can teach you the best hands to play, and just by playing those hands, you'll grind out quite a profit, but to really get good at the game, i think you really need some hours, especially with PLO8 versus limit O8.i think a book can teach you a lot, but it really takes experience to get good at things like:- recognizing when you're getting quartered- realizing that your non-nut hand is the best hand- knowing that you should fold the nuts- differentiating safe boards versus dangerous boardsmore importantly, though, experience just helps you out so much because you feel more comfortable with hand values. books usually just talk about drawing to the nuts, but only after a lot of hours do you develop a feel for when your K-high flush might be good or your turned baby boat is good. shorthanded play is also a gold-mine for experience and hand-reading ability (something books almost never touch upon).anyway, that said, definitely read a lot. though i've only read one physical book, i've read a ton of articles online. there are some solid articles that go into advanced things like pot manipulation (for PLO8) and differentiating between different types of premium starting hands, things like that.as for O8 vs just omaha, i'm completely in the same boat as you. i find omaha so difficult to play. maybe i'm just used to scooping hands and watching for low draws and whatnot, but i really have a tough time playing omaha (though i did book a nice session when i thought i was at an O8 table :-) ).so no, you're not fooling yourself. maybe omaha hi really is harder or at least less profitable, especially since the pots are smaller and less people see flops on average. who knows. i just stay away from omaha in general. and i think it's okay... mixed games almost never include omaha, but they include omaha8 (including the big game).if you're trying to expand into other games, i would suggest stud hi/lo, razz and lowball instead of omaha. the concepts you learn in omaha hi/lo really carry over strongly to stud hi/lo, and playing razz and lowball is much easier with hi/lo games under your belt.i've just gotten into triple-draw myself, it's awesome. i need to find more places to play it besides just ultimatebet.com, which doesn't even have that much action anyway. same with razz, it's only on fulltilt and has very little action. oh well.let me know if you need any links to articles and whatnot.aseem

[TJ_Eckleburg]

I knew there was some reason or another we kept you around aseem ( :Seriously though... I found this post to be very helpful. I'll be re-reading it quite frequently.

[Emptyeye]

akishore said:

- high-only hands like AAKK, AAQQ, AAKQ: raise to thin the field. you don't want a bunch of low + straight + flush draws on the flop with you. this hand obviously is very strong heads-up and short-handed.- high-only hands like KQJT, AQQJ, AATT: these types of high-only hands work better in big pots (do you see the difference between this type and the type above?).

I think so: With the first group, I'm really looking to hit a set and/or full house. Even if I do, the potential of a low means I could only be playing for half the pot. The second group, on the other hand, is a bunch of hands where I'm looking for a straight moreso than a set (Though I don't understand why AATT is in this group)--in other words, I WANT a lot of low hands in the pot, as my optimal flop for these hands is going to be high-only anyway.Thanks for looking through all those hands. Like I said, I realize I still have a lot to learn about this game, and while I'm doing well now, I'd like that to continue. I recently crossed the $50 threshold at Stars, so I COULD move up a level, but I'll probably hang around nickel-dime a little longer to see if I can get some of this down before moving up.

[akishore]

Emptyeye said:

akishore said:

- high-only hands like AAKK, AAQQ, AAKQ: raise to thin the field. you don't want a bunch of low + straight + flush draws on the flop with you. this hand obviously is very strong heads-up and short-handed.- high-only hands like KQJT, AQQJ, AATT: these types of high-only hands work better in big pots (do you see the difference between this type and the type above?).

I think so: With the first group, I'm really looking to hit a set and/or full house. Even if I do, the potential of a low means I could only be playing for half the pot. The second group, on the other hand, is a bunch of hands where I'm looking for a straight moreso than a set (Though I don't understand why AATT is in this group)--in other words, I WANT a lot of low hands in the pot, as my optimal flop for these hands is going to be high-only anyway.

you're partially right.the bigger difference is that AAKK is strong heads-up or three-handed, but AATT is not as strong. AAKK and AATT can both win unimproved heads-up, but AAKK has a better chance of improving and holding up heads-up and three-handed. while both AAKK and AATT are roughly 25% to hit a set, AAKK has higher set value and so works better heads-up and three-handed, for the same reason that JJ is a raising hand short-handed but 66 or 55 isn't (in HE).with hands like KQJT, they won't really hold up heads-up and three-handed unless they get a good flop, so you want to raise to build the pot, not to thin the field. you want a lot of dead money in the pot from all the low hands so that when you hit a high flop, you get paid off well.aseem