18 replies to this topic

[project240]

Table has been playing very passively for about 30 minutes. I just doubled up seat 7 after getting all in on the flop of Q-9-4 with my pocket 9s vs his pocket queens. Relevant stack sizes and positions below.

UTG (hero, seat 5) $125
seat 7 $220
seat 10 $200
seat 1 $60
seat 5 (big blind) $260

I was UTG and have made several blind raises from this position trying to loosen up the table a bit. The action goes:

Hero blind raises to $6
6 callers including both blinds

The flop comes 5s 7s 8c (POT SIZE=$42)
SB checks, BB bets $25. I decide it's time to take a peek at my cards... I look down at 9s 10s giving me a OESD and flush draw. I decide to just call his bet since I know he is a very good player from playing with him many times.

Seat 7 min raises to $50, Seat 10 pushes for $210 ish, seat 1 calls all in, now the action gets back to the Big Blind who thinks for a long time before also pushing all in. After he pushed, I knew he had a set from how he was talking about his odds and redraws.

So the action gets back to me and my thinking went like this.. seat 7 is a weak player, he probably min raised with just a 6 in his hand. With all the other action I had to put at least one player on a flush draw, BB on a set and I thought seat 10 may have flopped the nut straight.

I have about $100 left in front of me, with all this action do you ever fold this here? Does it make a difference if I have everyone covered instead of being one of the smaller stacks? I know I am drawing to 8 pure outs giving me a nut straight and possibly more outs to the flush in the rare event no one has a bigger flush draw.

What would you do? Results to follow.

[Naismith]

Table has been playing very passively for about 30 minutes. I just doubled up seat 7 after getting all in on the flop of Q-9-4 with my pocket 9s vs his pocket queens. Relevant stack sizes and positions below.

UTG (hero, seat 5) $125
seat 7 $220
seat 10 $200
seat 1 $60
seat 5 (big blind) $260

I was UTG and have made several blind raises from this position trying to loosen up the table a bit. The action goes:

Hero blind raises to $6
6 callers including both blinds

The flop comes 5s 7s 8c (POT SIZE=$42)
SB checks, BB bets $25. I decide it's time to take a peek at my cards... I look down at 9s 10s giving me a OESD and flush draw. I decide to just call his bet since I know he is a very good player from playing with him many times.

Seat 7 min raises to $50, Seat 10 pushes for $210 ish, seat 1 calls all in, now the action gets back to the Big Blind who thinks for a long time before also pushing all in. After he pushed, I knew he had a set from how he was talking about his odds and redraws.

So the action gets back to me and my thinking went like this.. seat 7 is a weak player, he probably min raised with just a 6 in his hand. With all the other action I had to put at least one player on a flush draw, BB on a set and I thought seat 10 may have flopped the nut straight.

I have about $100 left in front of me, with all this action do you ever fold this here? Does it make a difference if I have everyone covered instead of being one of the smaller stacks? I know I am drawing to 8 pure outs giving me a nut straight and possibly more outs to the flush in the rare event no one has a bigger flush draw.

What would you do? Results to follow.

Well I'm not one to fold straight flush draws easily, but if you are exactly correct in what hands you've put your opponents on, your flush is most likely dead, three or four of your straight outs are dead and you have to dodge the set's redraw.

Looks like a painful fold to me.

[Sea Wasp]

Raise flop here every time. Calling is really weak and reduces you to having to hit a big hand to win the pot. A big raise while your equity is at its highest is in order, with the aim of getting it all in on the flop.

As played looked to the left, look to the right, sign and then throw your $100 in there. There is way too much money out there for you to fold this even though some of your outs may not be clean. It is almost a no brainer after all that money goes in.

[project240]

Raise flop here every time. Calling is really weak and reduces you to having to hit a big hand to win the pot. A big raise while your equity is at its highest is in order, with the aim of getting it all in on the flop.

As played looked to the left, look to the right, sign and then throw your $100 in there. There is way too much money out there for you to fold this even though some of your outs may not be clean. It is almost a no brainer after all that money goes in.

My problem was that I saw seat 10 reaching for chips as soon as the flop hit. I knew he must have caught a big piece of it. I know I can't fold the hand after only the big blind bets, which is why I just called... wanting to see what other action there would be. Like I said, I only had $100 left... with this amount, it seemed like an easier decision to call, but if I had say $250 left, then I might lean towards a fold.

Other comments?

[Naismith]

I would fold this with the read that there's a made straight and a flush draw out there like you originally posted. I would've pushed the flop, though, and tried to clean up my flush draw/take down the pot there.

[Acid_Knight]

My problem was that I saw seat 10 reaching for chips as soon as the flop hit. I knew he must have caught a big piece of it. I know I can't fold the hand after only the big blind bets, which is why I just called... wanting to see what other action there would be. Like I said, I only had $100 left... with this amount, it seemed like an easier decision to call, but if I had say $250 left, then I might lean towards a fold.

Other comments?

Him reaching for chips is not a problem. Yes, your flush draw may be dead. Yes, someone may have 2 pair or a set and be drawing to a boat. You're not really concerned with that. Calling here is terrible because it invites others into the hand where if you raise, you may fold higher flush draws and give yourself more outs. You'd like to be against one opponent, but you'll take whatever action you can get with that monster.

I'm very confused by your play honestly. You need to raise that flop 100% of the time. Oh, and don't raise blind UTG, do it from the CO or Button.

You're shortstacked and this is an easy all-in call.

[Naismith]

You're shortstacked and this is an easy all-in call.

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone where I'm suggesting a fold when everyone else says call.

Are we ignoring the OP's read that he was up against the made straight and a flush draw? FOLD!

[Acid_Knight]

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone where I'm suggesting a fold when everyone else says call.

Are we ignoring the OP's read that he was up against the made straight and a flush draw? FOLD!

Are we also ignoring that his judgement is questionable enough to have been raising blind UTG on more than one occasion?

It's borderline, but I think a small amount of gambling is in order.

$5 says that when he posts the results, he will have made a hero-fold and is against the exact 3 hands he said he was against, making every single play he made seem brilliant.

On a flop like that, the number of hands which feel obligated to be involved are HUGE. Any kind of pair and a flush draw, 2 pair, pair and a straight draw, naked draws, sets, and even overpairs will become involved here. The range is even wider at lower limits.

He's drawing very well against everything EXCEPT the made straight and the higher flush draws. That's why I was aruging for a call. Well, that and the fact that he doesn't have many chips left.

[pokerplayer24]

Easy flop push, id call now.

[Naismith]

Are we also ignoring that his judgement is questionable enough to have been raising blind UTG on more than one occasion?

It's borderline, but I think a small amount of gambling is in order.

$5 says that when he posts the results, he will have made a hero-fold and is against the exact 3 hands he said he was against, making every single play he made seem brilliant.

On a flop like that, the number of hands which feel obligated to be involved are HUGE. Any kind of pair and a flush draw, 2 pair, pair and a straight draw, naked draws, sets, and even overpairs will become involved here. The range is even wider at lower limits.

He's drawing very well against everything EXCEPT the made straight and the higher flush draws. That's why I was aruging for a call. Well, that and the fact that he doesn't have many chips left.

I have a small amount of gamble in me, so I don't have a problem gambling like, ever.

I would've already been all in, though, so I wouldn't be at this point.

[David_Nicoson]

CODE

Board: 5s 7s 8c
Dead:  

    equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    
Hand 0: 13.154%  12.25% 00.90%              39222      2884.50   { Ts9s }
Hand 1: 27.318%  23.70% 03.62%              75870     11578.50   { 96s, 96o }
Hand 2: 38.124%  38.12% 00.00%             122040         0.00   { 88 }
Hand 3: 04.063%  01.35% 02.72%               4311      8694.00   { A6s, A6o }
Hand 4: 17.341%  17.34% 00.00%              55512         0.00   { KsQs }

It's a fold given your read, but I think it's possible that none of these hands is a made straight. This is much easier to play if you raise the flop.

[Naismith]

CODE

Board: 5s 7s 8c
Dead:  

    equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    
Hand 0: 13.154%  12.25% 00.90%              39222      2884.50   { Ts9s }
Hand 1: 27.318%  23.70% 03.62%              75870     11578.50   { 96s, 96o }
Hand 2: 38.124%  38.12% 00.00%             122040         0.00   { 88 }
Hand 3: 04.063%  01.35% 02.72%               4311      8694.00   { A6s, A6o }
Hand 4: 17.341%  17.34% 00.00%              55512         0.00   { KsQs }

It's a fold given your read, but I think it's possible that none of these hands is a made straight. This is much easier to play if you raise the flop.

How awesome is it that the set is that much favored over the current nuts?

The reality is, if we put one person on a higher flush draw, we shouldn't be pushing. I'm not quite the numbers guy you are, but the only way I could make it the correct call was if the other guys were on an overpair and top pair. I might be wrong about that and likely am.

[David_Nicoson]

If we assign everyone a hand that is merely pretty darn good, we're in pretty good shape.

CODE

Board: 5s 7s 8c
Dead:  

    equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    
Hand 0:     34.222%      33.60%     00.63%            1522752         28442.92   { Ts9s }
Hand 1:     16.434%      14.96%     01.47%             678238         66682.92   { 55+, AsJs, A8s, KsQs, KsJs, QsJs, JsTs, 96s, 87s, 96o, 87o }
Hand 2:     16.431%      14.97%     01.46%             678535         66268.17   { 55+, AsJs, A8s, KsQs, KsJs, QsJs, JsTs, 96s, 87s, 96o, 87o }
Hand 3:     16.439%      14.97%     01.47%             678511         66645.75   { 55+, AsJs, A8s, KsQs, KsJs, QsJs, JsTs, 96s, 87s, 96o, 87o }
Hand 4:     16.474%      15.01%     01.47%             680175         66543.25   { 55+, AsJs, A8s, KsQs, KsJs, QsJs, JsTs, 96s, 87s, 96o, 87o }

[David_Nicoson]

How awesome is it that the set is that much favored over the current nuts?

Yeah, that's an interesting fact. It's good to be drawing to the biggest hand.

[project240]

Yeah, that's an interesting fact. It's good to be drawing to the biggest hand.

I don't understand why some are suggesting I raise instead of just calling the initial $25 flop bet. Maybe I should have stated earlier for those who don't know, but playing live here, I know that if somebody did flop a set, there are not folding. If somebody did flop a flush draw, he's not folding. The table doesn't have many players who can actually lay down a hand/decent draw here, which is again why I just called at this point. If I was to push right here, in hindsight, the only player I know who may have folded was seat 7, the guy who minraised, but if he does have just a hand like 6-7, don't we want him calling anyways?

I obviously didn't have a made hand, and I knew a flop raise likely wouldn't push anyone out with a made hand or a decent draw. This was my reasoning for only calling. I didn't expect as much action as there was, but when it got back to me, there was over $400 in the pot I would play for with my stack if I called. So I was getting better than 4-1 on my money. I knew I had at least 6 good outs, possibly as many as 13 if I had the biggest flush draw (which was definitely possible).

I ended up making the call for my remaining $100 or so in chips. After replaying the hand in my head several times, I think I would have folded if I did have $300 left in front instead of just $100.

Before posting the outcome, here were the hands flipped over:
Seat 7: 8 - 6o (15.9%)
Seat 10: 8h - 8d (38.9%)
Seat 1: As-2s (23.1%)
Seat 5: 5h - 5c (5.1%)
Hero: 9s-10s (17.0)

Had I not been up against a larger flush draw, I go from 17% up to almost 40%. Before making this call, I knew there was a chance I had the best flush draw which in the end made me call. If I had $300 left, I probably would have raised the flop probably up to $100 here, seat 7 would have folded, but I know seat 10 still pushes, seat 1 still calls and the BB probably would have gotten away from his hand. Given this, I'm glad I played it the way I did, because against these 2 hands, I'm still only 17% to win, with no dead money in the pot.

Turn and River will be posted shortly.

[mtdesmoines]

At 4:1 short-stacked, I don't know that I could fold. Call em off and reload.

[project240]

Are we also ignoring that his judgement is questionable enough to have been raising blind UTG on more than one occasion?

I should also mention that my "judgement" isn't questionable here. I was raising for several reasons. I am one of the better players at the tables. When others see me raising blind, they start to raise a few more hands here and there. Unless I hit a huge flop, I can easily get away from my hand in this position, but I make way more money when I'm in position and they raise from EP catch a small piece and pay me off the whole way. Also, I had been playing fairly tight, so I was trying to create a looser image by making a small raise from up front.

I hope you assume most of the people posting on FCP on better than average players, therefore, there's is obviously a reason for most of the plays made during certain hands and my UTG raise wasn't "just for the hell of it".

[Naismith]

I should also mention that my "judgement" isn't questionable here. I was raising for several reasons. I am one of the better players at the tables. When others see me raising blind, they start to raise a few more hands here and there. Unless I hit a huge flop, I can easily get away from my hand in this position, but I make way more money when I'm in position and they raise from EP catch a small piece and pay me off the whole way. Also, I had been playing fairly tight, so I was trying to create a looser image by making a small raise from up front.

I hope you assume most of the people posting on FCP on better than average players, therefore, there's is obviously a reason for most of the plays made during certain hands and my UTG raise wasn't "just for the hell of it".

If you trust your judgment, you have to fold. Your reads as posted in the OP demand a fold of your hand. I know you ended up hitting your straight and taking a big pot, but that doesn't make it the right play.

The reason you raise is because you want the bigger flush draw to fold. Not raising means the bigger flush plays meaning your hand is no longer a good play meaning you need to fold.

[David_Nicoson]

I don't understand why some are suggesting I raise instead of just calling the initial $25 flop bet. Maybe I should have stated earlier for those who don't know, but playing live here, I know that if somebody did flop a set, there are not folding. If somebody did flop a flush draw, he's not folding. The table doesn't have many players who can actually lay down a hand/decent draw here, which is again why I just called at this point. If I was to push right here, in hindsight, the only player I know who may have folded was seat 7, the guy who minraised, but if he does have just a hand like 6-7, don't we want him calling anyways?

I don't expect a set or the nut flush draw to fold with multiway action, but if you can knock out QsTs, 66, or an overpair, that's huge. And since that might be the best hand out there, you may just win the pot uncontested.