ace king is for suckers at low limit he

[Rocketwadster 0]

Here are the hand histories from my play today when I had ace king. Ever since I went to Paradise, I have used Pokertracker to keep track of my play. According to poker tracker, I have a 0% winning percentage with ace king offsuit and a 10% winning percentage with ace king suited :evil: Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP1 with [Kc], [Ad]. 2 folds.Flop: (9 SB) [8d], [Ah], [2s] (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls.Turn: (6 BB) [9h] (3 players)SB bets, Hero calls.Right here, I told the SB that he had pocket nines or ace nine.River: (12 BB) [Ac] (2 players)SB bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 14 BBLoved the ace on the river, unless he had what I said he had.Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP3 with [Kd], [Ah]. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.Flop: (9.40 SB) [2h], [5c], [Ad] (4 players)UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.Turn: (6.70 BB) [5h] (4 players)UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.River: (9.70 BB) [Tc] (3 players)UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, CO calls.Final Pot: 12.70 BBAt this point, I figured UTH+1 had ace ten. Nothing else made sense to me when I was playing. Had to call his bet though (didn't think a raise was right).Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP2 with [Ks], [Ah]. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (7.40 SB) [3h], [5d], [7d] (3 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.Scary flop for me, especially with the two to the flush.Turn: (5.70 BB) [Td] (2 players)Hero bets, MP3 calls.Ouch. Third flush card comes. Time to test the waters to see who has what.River: (7.70 BB) [Jd] (2 players)Hero bets, MP3 calls.Hmmm. No raise on the turn, so no flush, but now this river...only way to win is to bet and try to get him to fold.Final Pot: 9.70 BBI'll advise on the winning hands if anyone cares. Since you don't know yet what they had, tell me how else to play this at these low limits (remember: this is $0.25/0.50).

[KDawgCometh 2]

hand 3 is the only one wrongly played. Call the flop raise and check fold the turn UI

[Rocketwadster 0]

hand 3 is the only one wrongly played. Call the flop raise and check fold the turn UI

Apparantly they were all wrongly played as I lost them all. For the third one, I said that I was trying to steal it with the four to the flush showing. You will understand my frustrations when you see the "winning" hands, and especially in that third game (which was actually the first hand played today with ace king) that I didn't misplay it...

[justblaze 0]

your sample size must be MASSIVE! like, probably over 100 hands! interestingly, my 5 most winning hands at 1-2 LHE through 20k hands this month are:1. AA2. QQ3. KK4. AKs5. AKoweird, eh?

[KDawgCometh 2]

hand 3 is the only one wrongly played. Call the flop raise and check fold the turn UI

Apparantly they were all wrongly played as I lost them all. For the third one, I said that I was trying to steal it with the four to the flush showing. You will understand my frustrations when you see the "winning" hands, and especially in that third game (which was actually the first hand played today with ace king) that I didn't misplay it...

yea to going by results based thinking. Its simple, don't bluff in low limit games, so yes you did play hand 3 wrong. You played the others fine, stop analyzing plays with results in mind

[Emptyeye 0]

Yeah, I've gotta agree, bluffing almost never works in low-limit games (I can't really comment on high-limit). You fired at the flop on hand three, got raised, you have nothing, it's not even worth seeing the turn IMO, just drop it right there.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

hand 3 is the only one wrongly played. Call the flop raise and check fold the turn UI

Agreed.

[Rocketwadster 0]

your sample size must be MASSIVE! like, probably over 100 hands! interestingly, my 5 most winning hands at 1-2 LHE through 20k hands this month are:1. AA2. QQ3. KK4. AKs5. AKoweird, eh?

It's not massive as of yet, as I have only been playing Paradise for less than 2 months now (not sure of the exact date). My stats are based on 12 hands with ace-king offsuit and 10 hands with ace king suited (one winning hand out of 22). Not a great sample size, but large enough to know that ace king suited or not has a ton of catching up to do to get where it is supposed to be in the EV hand rankings. Clearly, since ace king is supposed to be a winner over the long haul, I have to jam the pot each and every time...lol.

[justblaze 0]

your sample size must be MASSIVE! like, probably over 100 hands! interestingly, my 5 most winning hands at 1-2 LHE through 20k hands this month are:1. AA2. QQ3. KK4. AKs5. AKoweird, eh?

It's not massive as of yet, as I have only been playing Paradise for less than 2 months now (not sure of the exact date). My stats are based on 12 hands with ace-king offsuit and 10 hands with ace king suited (one winning hand out of 22). Not a great sample size, but large enough to know that ace king suited or not has a ton of catching up to do to get where it is supposed to be in the EV hand rankings. Clearly, since ace king is supposed to be a winner over the long haul, I have to jam the pot each and every time...lol.

my first four AA's this month were losers. AA was my biggest loser through 900 hands. 22 instances means nothing. come back when you have a thousand.

[Absolute 0]

According to poker tracker, I have a 0% winning percentage with ace king offsuit and a 10% winning percentage with ace king suited

I guess you should just stop playing it then!

[Briguy 0]

It's not massive as of yet, as I have only been playing Paradise for less than 2 months now (not sure of the exact date). My stats are based on 12 hands with ace-king offsuit and 10 hands with ace king suited (one winning hand out of 22). Not a great sample size, but large enough to know that ace king suited or not has a ton of catching up to do to get where it is supposed to be in the EV hand rankings. Clearly, since ace king is supposed to be a winner over the long haul, I have to jam the pot each and every time...lol.

You've been very unlucky, considering that you have about a 1/3 chance of hitting TPTK, coupled with lesser chances of hitting nut flush and straight draws. It's gotta turn around.That said, I've had sessions where I've seen AK 20 times and not hit a single flop. Or worse, had some freak calling two cold with A8o preflop hit their two pair. Betting aggressively on a missed flop helps with the winning percentage, but it's not gonna take down 25% of those pots, sadly. And three K outs are cold comfort against a flop raise / turn bet combination.

[Rocketwadster 0]

It's not massive as of yet, as I have only been playing Paradise for less than 2 months now (not sure of the exact date). My stats are based on 12 hands with ace-king offsuit and 10 hands with ace king suited (one winning hand out of 22). Not a great sample size, but large enough to know that ace king suited or not has a ton of catching up to do to get where it is supposed to be in the EV hand rankings. Clearly, since ace king is supposed to be a winner over the long haul, I have to jam the pot each and every time...lol.

You've been very unlucky, considering that you have about a 1/3 chance of hitting TPTK, coupled with lesser chances of hitting nut flush and straight draws. It's gotta turn around.That said, I've had sessions where I've seen AK 20 times and not hit a single flop. Or worse, had some freak calling two cold with A8o preflop hit their two pair. Betting aggressively on a missed flop helps with the winning percentage, but it's not gonna take down 25% of those pots, sadly. And three K outs are cold comfort against a flop raise / turn bet combination.

When I give you the winning hands, I hoep everyone can appreciate the frustration I had today with these hands. To my best recollection, the other 19 time I lost with them, I lost against some pretty good hands. That's not to say that these "winners" weren't pretty good (don't want to give anything away just yet). But as you can see, I was agressive throughout all three hands, and with the exception of the third one where I had to bluff at it on the river to win (looking back this was the only way to play the hand if I wanted to win it), I think I played them correctly (based on the limit I was playing at).

[KDawgCometh 2]

look, the results don't matter. stop thinking of them. We all have bad beat or donk player stories so you aren't gonna get much sympathy. With the exception of hand 3 you played them fine. stop worrying about the results and instead worry about how you played it

[wrto4556 0]

Kdawg is right on the money, stop being stubborn and listen to him.

[Vade 0]

look, the results don't matter. stop thinking of them. We all have bad beat or donk player stories so you aren't gonna get much sympathy. With the exception of hand 3 you played them fine. stop worrying about the results and instead worry about how you played it

Quoting again for effectThis is an amazing truth...AK is a flaky hand imo

[woutoR 0]

I agree with kdawg playing hands properly will give you money in the longrun

[Rocketwadster 0]

I agree with kdawg playing hands properly will give you money in the longrun

I agree that better play will yield better results over time. Read my original post title again though, as it speaks for itself. Ace King is a drawing hand, and at the low limits (in my experience so far on Paradise and many other sites), a pre-flop raise or even a re-raise just doesn't garner the respect it should. These aren't bad beats, so I ain't looking f0r sympathy. For anyone who cares, here is what the winning hands were:The first hand posted, the guy had ace nine offsuit. I knew he had one or the other while we were playing when he raised after the nine came. I had folded some other pretty strong hands earlier to the same opponent when he came over the top of me, but my laydowns were incorrect 2 out of the 5 times (others kept in with him). This time, I was about 85% sure that he wasn't making a play at me, but I was wrong to call.Second hand posted, the guy had pocket tens. He chased a two outer all the way to the river, and won. I was upset, as I hardly ever do that if the situation was reversed, even at the lower limits.Third hand posted, this is the hard one to believe when I look back at it. The guy had a 4 of spades and a 7 of clubs. He took it all the way to the river with a pair of 7's and a four as his kicker, despite the four to the flush on the board. Looking at what he had, I believe I played this hand exactly like I should, I just happened to run into a stubborn individual who probably doesn't look at the board to see what others could possible have. Had any of these hands been at a higher limit table (say $5/$10 or $2/$4), I can't see two of the three results ending up the same as they did (the ace nine is borderline in my opinion, as I don't usually call a raise with that hand myself, especially when I dabble at a higher table).

[justblaze 0]

I agree with kdawg playing hands properly will give you money in the longrun

I agree that better play will yield better results over time. Read my original post title again though, as it speaks for itself. Ace King is a drawing hand, and at the low limits (in my experience so far on Paradise and many other sites), a pre-flop raise or even a re-raise just doesn't garner the respect it should. These aren't bad beats, so I ain't looking f0r sympathy. For anyone who cares, here is what the winning hands were:The first hand posted, the guy had ace nine offsuit. I knew he had one or the other while we were playing when he raised after the nine came. I had folded some other pretty strong hands earlier to the same opponent when he came over the top of me, but my laydowns were incorrect 2 out of the 5 times (others kept in with him). This time, I was about 85% sure that he wasn't making a play at me, but I was wrong to call.Second hand posted, the guy had pocket tens. He chased a two outer all the way to the river, and won. I was upset, as I hardly ever do that if the situation was reversed, even at the lower limits.Third hand posted, this is the hard one to believe when I look back at it. The guy had a 4 of spades and a 7 of clubs. He took it all the way to the river with a pair of 7's and a four as his kicker, despite the four to the flush on the board. Looking at what he had, I believe I played this hand exactly like I should, I just happened to run into a stubborn individual who probably doesn't look at the board to see what others could possible have. Had any of these hands been at a higher limit table (say $5/$10 or $2/$4), I can't see two of the three results ending up the same as they did (the ace nine is borderline in my opinion, as I don't usually call a raise with that hand myself, especially when I dabble at a higher table).

dont kid yourself. idiots abound at all levels. some are just wealthier than others.

[wrto4556 0]

At low limits you're aren't really raisng AK to "protect" your hand. You have equity. It's magical and you should garner it's unlimited power.

[Rocketwadster 0]

At low limits you're aren't really raisng AK to "protect" your hand. You have equity. It's magical and you should garner it's unlimited power.

Sorry, but can you please elaborate your posting a little, as I am unsure of whether you are agreeing with my statement about playing ace king at low limit, or some other concept that I am having trouble grasping. :oops:

[wrto4556 0]

At low limits you're aren't really raisng AK to "protect" your hand. You have equity. It's magical and you should garner it's unlimited power.

Sorry, but can you please elaborate your posting a little, as I am unsure of whether you are agreeing with my statement about playing ace king at low limit, or some other concept that I am having trouble grasping. :oops:

I'm disagreeing with you. You should raise AK in low limit games.With AK against 9 other random hands you will about 17% of the time. You are only putting in 10% of the money (17 to 10; you have a 7% equity edge) and, therefore, should raise for value.

[Rocketwadster 0]

At low limits you're aren't really raisng AK to "protect" your hand. You have equity. It's magical and you should garner it's unlimited power.

Sorry, but can you please elaborate your posting a little, as I am unsure of whether you are agreeing with my statement about playing ace king at low limit, or some other concept that I am having trouble grasping. :oops:

I'm disagreeing with you. You should raise AK in low limit games.With AK against 9 other random hands you will about 17% of the time. You are only putting in 10% of the money (17 to 10; you have a 7% equity edge) and, therefore, should raise for value.

Okay, now that I understand what you are saying, I can comment.I agree with the math and everything, but I have provided my (limited) history with Ace King so far on Paradise at low limits, and the results speak for themselves. I have to go on an unbelievable winning streak with ace king just to brea even with this demon-spawn hand, which is highly unlikely. Too many callers pre-flop not respecting the raise (7 4 offsuit anyone). Too many chasers hoping their mediocre pocket pair miraculously hits on the turn/river. My point of the whole posting is to whine about the lack of respect that this hand gets at these limits. I haven't played very much at the higher limits, but based on how I value money, I can't imagine someone calling a raise at the higher limits with 7 4 offsuit, then chasing that pair of sevens all the way to the river when four to a flush is showing. More money than brains players might, but it just isnt a value play in the long run, and I would assume that the higher the limits, the better the players (in a general sort of way).

[wrto4556 0]

At low limits you're aren't really raisng AK to "protect" your hand. You have equity. It's magical and you should garner it's unlimited power.

Sorry, but can you please elaborate your posting a little, as I am unsure of whether you are agreeing with my statement about playing ace king at low limit, or some other concept that I am having trouble grasping. :oops:

I'm disagreeing with you. You should raise AK in low limit games.With AK against 9 other random hands you will about 17% of the time. You are only putting in 10% of the money (17 to 10; you have a 7% equity edge) and, therefore, should raise for value.

Okay, now that I understand what you are saying, I can comment.I agree with the math and everything, but I have provided my (limited) history with Ace King so far on Paradise at low limits, and the results speak for themselves. I have to go on an unbelievable winning streak with ace king just to brea even with this demon-spawn hand, which is highly unlikely. Too many callers pre-flop not respecting the raise (7 4 offsuit anyone). Too many chasers hoping their mediocre pocket pair miraculously hits on the turn/river. My point of the whole posting is to whine about the lack of respect that this hand gets at these limits. I haven't played very much at the higher limits, but based on how I value money, I can't imagine someone calling a raise at the higher limits with 7 4 offsuit, then chasing that pair of sevens all the way to the river when four to a flush is showing. More money than brains players might, but it just isnt a value play in the long run, and I would assume that the higher the limits, the better the players (in a general sort of way).

You have alot to learn.

[Rocketwadster 0]

You have alot to learn.Finally a comment that I agree with totally. Don't we all though? Otherwise, why would we be using these forums? I have expressed an opinion on a specific hand at a specific level, which will obviously garner opposing views. Too many people rely on the math (I am one of them), but I have displayed (my limited) evidence to the contrary of what the math says. Based on my results, I can only see a few courses of action:1) Move to a higher level of play. Not really desireable at this juncture, as my bankroll wouldn't sustain it. Plus, I will readily admit that I am not adequately prepared for it as of yet skill-wise.2) Stop playing ace-king agressively like I have in the past. If I miss, take one final stab and if called, try to check it out, regardless of the cards that are showing. Not a fan of this play (Doyle supports it though, so how bad can it be?).3) Stop playing ace king at all. Not gonna happen.4) Stop posting personal opinions on this forum based soleley on personal history. Clearly, my personal history will not be the same as someone else's, so they may not be able to appreciate what it is I am trying to convey. This seems to be the most logical course of action.Thanks for the input.

[justblaze 0]

You have alot to learn.

Finally a comment that I agree with totally. Don't we all though? Otherwise' date=' why would we be using these forums? I have expressed an opinion on a specific hand at a specific level, which will obviously garner opposing views. [b']Too many people rely on the math (I am one of them), but I have displayed (my limited) evidence to the contrary of what the math says. [/b] Based on my results, I can only see a few courses of action:1) Move to a higher level of play. Not really desireable at this juncture, as my bankroll wouldn't sustain it. Plus, I will readily admit that I am not adequately prepared for it as of yet skill-wise.2) Stop playing ace-king agressively like I have in the past. If I miss, take one final stab and if called, try to check it out, regardless of the cards that are showing. Not a fan of this play (Doyle supports it though, so how bad can it be?).3) Stop playing ace king at all. Not gonna happen.4) Stop posting personal opinions on this forum based soleley on personal history. Clearly, my personal history will not be the same as someone else's, so they may not be able to appreciate what it is I am trying to convey. This seems to be the most logical course of action.Thanks for the input.actually you havent contradicted the math, you've just ignored it. probabilities are not certainties. they require large sample sizes to become accurate.