8 replies to this topic

[akishore]

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converterresults for each hand are at the very bottom, but don't read them until you comment on my plays. thanks.Hand 1:Preflop: akishore is UTG+1 with [3 :club: ], [6 :spade: ], [A :club: ], [J :club: ]. UTG calls, akishore calls, 6 folds, SB completes, BB checks.a pretty loose EP call, but the game was very loose/passive. i liked the suited ace, the A-3, and the 6 (three-quartering potential with 6-high straight and wheel). whoops--this hand, almost everyone folded! so much for the loose/passive table...Flop: (4 SB) [A :diamond: ], [A :heart: ], [J :spade: ] (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, akishore checks.flopped the nuts! my question on this hand here is: was it right to check here??? i almost NEVER slowplay in this game--this is a game where people will call you down with all kinds of backdoor draws and you're missing bets if you slowplay. however, i felt that since i had position in this hand, i could give up a few SB's for more BB's on the turn if someone bet and i raised (fish in this game love to bluff and never understand how futile it is). i felt that if i bet, i would probably get two or maybe all three people to fold. was the check here correct?Turn: (2 BB) [J :diamond: ] (4 players)SB bets, SB calls, UTG calls.i really wasn't happy to see this card. i thought this would destroy the chances of someone betting here, but i was wrong. SB bet out and i raised.River: (8 BB) [K :club: ] (3 players)SB checks, UTG checks, akishore bets, SB folds, UTG calls.only one hand had me beat here, and that was AKxx. i felt that that was not a real possibility because AKxx would have probably bet the flop (unless he had AKJx) or three-bet me after i raised the turn. so i figured the raise meant KKxx, so instead of going for an overcall of just one BB, i figured it was worth it to go for a possible 3 BB's if i got a cold call and another call by the raiser. at worst, SB would fold and UTG would call, so i would get the same result. indeed, that happened.Final Pot: 15 BBHand 2:Preflop: akishore is SB with [9 :club: ], [A :diamond: ], [4 :spade: ], [9 :heart: ]. 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, akishore completes, BB checks.easy complete from the small blind.Flop: (6 SB) [9 :diamond: ], [2 :spade: ], [3 :spade: ] (6 players)akishore bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.wow, what a miracle flop! this is exactly the type of flop i would hope for with my type of hand, except for the maybe the two spades part. of course i bet out from the SB with the nuts, get raised, and three-bet it.Turn: (10.50 BB) [7 :club: ] (5 players)akishore bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.again bet out with the nuts in both directions.River: (15.50 BB) [8 :diamond: ] (5 players)akishore bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.betting out is correct here, i think, even though my low may get quartered (which is okay since it's five-way) and lose the high end to a straight. this wasn't really a hand i need comments on, just an example of how great and scoopable this game is!Final Pot: 20.50 BBHand 3:Preflop: akishore is Button with [A :diamond: ], [5 :club: ], [2 :diamond: ], [5 :spade: ]. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, akishore calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.cold-called a raise from the CO with A255 ace-suited on the button. was this too loose?Flop: (12 SB) [6 :heart: ], [A :heart: ], [3 :spade: ] (6 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.definitely not sure if this was correct. looking back, i can't see why in the world i would raise here, but i know i had some reason. i think my second-nut low had a strong chance of being good and even my pair of aces might be good against the CO raiser, so i raised his bet to thin the field and isolate, which didn't work. was this correct?Turn: (10 BB) [T :spade: ] (4 players)UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, akishore calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.CO betting again meant he had the high, i felt. so i called his bet and didn't raise again. the passive flop cold-calling meant my second-nut low was probably good, and i needed to build up the pot for my end of it. calling here correct? or should i raise again for some strange reason?River: (14 BB) [T :heart: ] (4 players)UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, akishore calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.same as turn.Final Pot: 18 BBHand 4:Preflop: akishore is UTG+2 with [A :heart: ], [Q :club: ], [A :club: ], [9 :club: ]. 2 folds, BB calls.a somewhat loose hand to call with, but a good enough hand to raise with to thin the field (gap concept). correct raise?Flop: (4.40 SB) [3 :club: ], [K :heart: ], [9 :diamond: ] (2 players)BB checks, akishore bets, BB calls.an overpair with a second pair redraw to trips. backdoor low draw possible on board. heads-up, so this is okay. i bet out. correct?Turn: (3.20 BB) [3 :heart: ] (2 players)BB checks, akishore bets, BB calls.not a big fan of the board pairing since i could be up against trips now and drawing to 4 outs at best, but i give it another stab since no low is possible anymore. remember that it's heads-up. betting out correct?River: (5.20 BB) [2 :club: ] (2 players)BB checks, akishore checks.i feel that i might be beat here since i only have aces up as my hand. since he obviously isn't chasing a low, i feel that i should just check here and prevent myself from getting raised by a slowplayed boat or trips. is a check here correct, or should i value bet it?Final Pot: 5.20 BBResults for hand 1 in white below: UTG has 2s Kh Ks 5h (High: full house, kings full of aces). akishore has 3c 6s Ac Jc (High: full house, aces full of jacks). Outcome: akishore wins 15 BB. Results for hand 2 in white below: akishore has 9c Ad 4s 9h (Low: 7, 4, 3, 2, A | High: three of a kind, nines). UTG+1 has 2h 4d 5c 2d (Low: 7, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: three of a kind, twos). MP1 has Kc Kd Qc Jd (High: one pair, kings). CO has Js As Jh 6d (Low: 7, 6, 3, 2, A | High: one pair, jacks). Button has Qs 5d 4c 4h (Low: 7, 5, 4, 3, 2 | High: one pair, fours). Outcome: akishore wins 20.50 BB. Results for hand 3 in white below: UTG has 6c Js 6d 3d (High: full house, sixes full of tens). UTG+1 has 7h 8h Ac 2h (Low: 7, 6, 3, 2, A | High: flush, ace high). CO has As Kh 8s 8d (High: two pair, aces and tens). akishore has Ad 5c 2d 5s (Low: 6, 5, 3, 2, A | High: two pair, aces and tens). Outcome: akishore wins 9 BB. UTG wins 9 BB. Results for hand 4 in white below: BB has Js As Jd 8s (High: two pair, jacks and threes). akishore has Ah Qc Ac 9c (High: two pair, aces and threes). Outcome: akishore wins 5.20 BB. thanks,aseem

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Let me preface everything by saying that O/8 is not my best game. I feel like I've got a pretty good grasp on it though... and I definitely enjoy reading about it because it helps me too. These are my opinions... and if I'm wrong on my thoughts I'd love to be corrected.Hand 1:For the record I believe this was a little loosey goosey preflop. Bad position, not a great low draw working, penalty flush card, et cetera. However, obviously the meat of the hand comes from post-flop play.I believe the check on the flop is okay. I'm not big into slow-playing either, but you are the de facto button since everyone else folded. Plus, there's a big difference between checking the flopped nut straight and checking the flopped nut boat PLUS without having to worry about quads. Betting could only get people without an ace to fold, and adds to fold equity when the bets increase, when you WANT to get raised.The turn raise is obviously correct. Still the nuts, not a great card, and the bets are as big as they'll get. I'm surprised you got called by these people... such is low limit online.As for the river, I agree with the three-bet. The check-raise on the card that out-nuts you is obviously worrisome... but you can still assume that AK would have bet out that flop. I think people in O/8 tend to overvalue the prospect of overcalls, and it costs people value bets. You can pretty reasonably assume you have the best hand, and if all 3 people called a bet and a raise on an AAJJ board... with only one A and one J left in the deck... raising for value is the play I prefer.Hand 2:I tend to be looser than most in the blinds... because I can never seem to find a hand coordinated enough outside of the blinds that I want to play. In any event, odds, low draw, pocket pair... definitely an easy complete. This hand really plays itself. These are the flops you fold for hours for in O/8.Hand 3:I believe the call preflop is not too loose. I'm of the opinion that almost any A2 suited in O/8 is worth a flop for a raise, whether you're the raiser or the caller. Three wheel cards, suited ace, pocket pair, AND the button... you can't really ask for much more coordination in this game.Peculiar flop. I like the raise to find out where the raiser is at. Plus, for isolation purposes on a pretty big field with top pair and a made low, these reasons are enough to raise I think. Naturally the raiser would bet his flop in position checked to him on a low coordinated board, and the raise makes him check himself. Don't forget, we have a second place low and a second place high, but one of them ought to be good against the raiser. Furthermore, we have outs to a wheel, which could monkey things up for everyone else. I think a raise on the flop is definitely correct.The flush card is worrisome. I still think check/calling is correct. We still have a weird second-nut low, with outs to the very nut low which probably counterfeits a lot of people. I think we should try to just show this one down from here on in.Still show it down on the river.Hand 4:I personally think aces are the trickiest hand to play in O/8... especially as primarily a Hold'em player. They're still aces, but it's easy to overplay yourself and get in trouble. The real leak with aces, however, comes from post-flop play, not pre-flop... and I DEFINITELY prefer raising to calling with a not-terribly-coordinated "x-x" to go with the AA.Heads up is the best thing we could have hoped for, and the rather un-coordinated board is also a good thing... especially the lack of a strong low draw. I think the bet with what is quite possibly the best high right now is definitely correct.Obviously not a great turn card. However... it did just save you from someone who possibly flopped top two and it's good in that a low can't be made. Checked to you again in position, I see no reason to think our high isn't good, so by all means bet it. Definitely want to charge him if he's got two BS hearts to draw at some goofball flush.I definitely think you missed a value bet here. Very good river for you. Can't make a straight, can't make a low, can't make a flush, and if that card two-paired him we've still got him counterfeited with aces up. The only hand that you were ahead of on the turn that you're behind to now is 22. I realize he's check-called a lot while we have far from the nuts, but I don't see any reason to think from his betting that we're beat here.Well played, well thought out, and eloquently presented, as always, aseem. Hope this helps!

[akishore]

TJ_Eckleburg said:

Obviously not a great turn card. However... it did just save you from someone who possibly flopped top two and it's good in that a low can't be made. Checked to you again in position, I see no reason to think our high isn't good, so by all means bet it. Definitely want to charge him if he's got two BS hearts to draw at some goofball flush. I definitely think you missed a value bet here. Very good river for you. Can't make a straight, can't make a low, can't make a flush, and if that card two-paired him we've still got him counterfeited with aces up. The only hand that you were ahead of on the turn that you're behind to now is 22. I realize he's check-called a lot while we have far from the nuts, but I don't see any reason to think from his betting that we're beat here.

great point that i never thought about. the turn card was actually great for except in the rare case that my opponent had a 3 or a set. the former case (he had a 3) is unlikely, and the latter case (he flopped a set) meant that i was behind the whole way anyway.you're right, i missed a value bet on the river because the 2 was just about as safe a card as i could ask for. thanks for pointing it out for me, and thanks for your comments.aseem

[Emptyeye]

akishore said:

Hand 2:Preflop: akishore is SB with [9 :club: ], [A :diamond: ], [4 :spade: ], [9 :heart: ]. 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, akishore completes, BB checks.easy complete from the small blind.

Help me out here, as I'm still trying to learn this game: Why is this an easy complete? Yeah, there are possibilities here, but almost none of them will be optimal (You hit, as you said, the dream flop on this one). Your low draw isn't likely to be to the nuts (Again, dream flop and all of that), your ace isn't suited, and even if you hit your set of nines, there's likely to be an overcard, and you'll thus have to worry about the potential of an overset. Is this one of those hands that you play only because you're in a blind? Because this hand seems like big trouble from any other position.

[dms26]

Emptyeye said:

akishore said:

Hand 2:Preflop: akishore is SB with [9 :club: ], [A :diamond: ], [4 :spade: ], [9 :heart: ]. 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, akishore completes, BB checks.easy complete from the small blind.

Help me out here, as I'm still trying to learn this game: Why is this an easy complete? Yeah, there are possibilities here, but almost none of them will be optimal (You hit, as you said, the dream flop on this one). Your low draw isn't likely to be to the nuts (Again, dream flop and all of that), your ace isn't suited, and even if you hit your set of nines, there's likely to be an overcard, and you'll thus have to worry about the potential of an overset. Is this one of those hands that you play only because you're in a blind? Because this hand seems like big trouble from any other position.

There are so many limpers and no raises, you have to call here from the SB and hope for a good flop, which he got. He was getting good pot odds to call there so long as the BB doesn't raise. He was getting 11.5-1 to call there, so that makes it easy.

[akishore]

Emptyeye said:

akishore said:

Hand 2:Preflop: akishore is SB with [9 :club: ], [A :diamond: ], [4 :spade: ], [9 :heart: ]. 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, akishore completes, BB checks.easy complete from the small blind.

Help me out here, as I'm still trying to learn this game: Why is this an easy complete? Yeah, there are possibilities here, but almost none of them will be optimal (You hit, as you said, the dream flop on this one). Your low draw isn't likely to be to the nuts (Again, dream flop and all of that), your ace isn't suited, and even if you hit your set of nines, there's likely to be an overcard, and you'll thus have to worry about the potential of an overset. Is this one of those hands that you play only because you're in a blind? Because this hand seems like big trouble from any other position.

it's the same reason 5-2 suited is an easy complete from the SB in a loose low limit HE game. you're right, the ace wasn't suited and my A-4 wasn't especially strong, but the reason it's playable is because i'm in the blind and the pot odds are huge and the implied odds are huger (is huger a word?). and yes, it's an easy fold in any other position.aseem

[Emptyeye]

Okay, so in other words you're looking to flop an absolute monster or get out of the hand. That works, thanks for clearing that up.I can't really offer advice on how to play the hands, having looked at the results. I do like your thinking as to why your second-nut low is probably good (No raising at any point; people go totally nuts when they hit the nut low, I've noticed, not even considering the fact that others in the hand could also have it--I inadvertantly did this one time and, though I actually got sixthed on my nut low, took the high with BOTTOM TWO-PAIR) in hand 3.Also, for Hand 1, did you have some sort of read on UTG? I know it's Omaha Hi/L as opposed to normal Omaha, but is it your experience that most people still overvalue high pocket pairs (I'm just trying to put myself in your place, and thinking "Wouldn't he have raised with a huge pocket pair, because most players at these limits are terrible?")?

[dms26]

Emptyeye said:

Okay, so in other words you're looking to flop an absolute monster or get out of the hand. That works, thanks for clearing that up.I can't really offer advice on how to play the hands, having looked at the results. I do like your thinking as to why your second-nut low is probably good (No raising at any point; people go totally nuts when they hit the nut low, I've noticed, not even considering the fact that others in the hand could also have it--I inadvertantly did this one time and, though I actually got sixthed on my nut low, took the high with BOTTOM TWO-PAIR) in hand 3.Also, for Hand 1, did you have some sort of read on UTG? I know it's Omaha Hi/L as opposed to normal Omaha, but is it your experience that most people still overvalue high pocket pairs (I'm just trying to put myself in your place, and thinking "Wouldn't he have raised with a huge pocket pair, because most players at these limits are terrible?")?

I don't know if alot of players raise with a hand like KKxx but they will play the hand from any position thinking it's a good hand. Alot of players at low limits are calling stations but rarely raise, at least in my experience. Even though Aseem didn't have the nuts it was close enough and I think a good value bet, if he gets raised its only one more bet. In most cases though he wins that hand and gets in an extra bet, more than making up for times he is beaten with the 2nd nuts.Is this kind of what you were asking?I played with a guy in a $1 omaha h/l tourney that really though TTxx was a playable hand.

[akishore]

Emptyeye said:

Also, for Hand 1, did you have some sort of read on UTG? I know it's Omaha Hi/L as opposed to normal Omaha, but is it your experience that most people still overvalue high pocket pairs (I'm just trying to put myself in your place, and thinking "Wouldn't he have raised with a huge pocket pair, because most players at these limits are terrible?")?

here was my reasoning:if he had AKxx, he would have bet the flop. he doesn't have a monster, he only has trip aces. even if he strangely did not bet the flop, he would have almost always raised my turn bet since the jack is almost a scare card for people.it's not about reads really, it's just about observing general low limit play. people in this game play really super terribly, and one facet of this is that they slowplay hands they can get value from but get aggressive with marginal hands. AKxx would have surely come to life on the turn if not the flop, so i found it hard to believe that the river meant villian had AKxx.KKxx really stuck out in my mind, as that's the only hand he might check-raise with thinking it's now the best hand.and as dms pointed out, yes, a lot of people play any pocket pair and go wild when they hit their sets (even a set of 3's), but i wouldn't say they raise with it, with the exception of AAxx. o8 at these limits is fairly passive, and raising usually means:1. AAxx.2. A2xx.3. A23x.4. two pocket pairs, e.g. JJ88 or KK55.5. four-straight hands, e.g. 2345, 6789 (yes, one of the worst hands in o8), or 9TJQ.this is just my experience, but i think it's pretty accurate.let me know if you have any more questions.aseem