13 replies to this topic

[t-bone]

Pages 434-438 of Super Sysytem are perhaps the best advice available. Doyle talks about how leading into the raiser (as opposed to checkraising) is a MUCH more profitable play. However, I see so many people checkraise so often it almost makes me laugh. I think it is a very obvious sign of a monster hand, and I can ususally lay down a fairly strong hand to a big check-raise. For example, if I'm in LP with AA and raise to 5x BB and one EP limper calls, and the flop comes something like 78T with a flush draw. If that limper checks to, then I bet out the pot protecting my vulnerable hand, and then he raises me allin, it'll be a much easier lay down than if he lead into me. He could have 77, 88, TT, 56s, 78s, 9Js, even 99 is still a coin flip with AA here. There are so many possible hands this player could have a big checkraise would frighten me and I could lay down my AA with confidence, and not having invested TOO much into the hand.BUT, if this player had lead into me, I would have been almost forced to call, only because I already had invested so much into the pot. Let's say the blinds were $2/$4, and I raised to $16 preflop and he called. The pot is at $38. He flops his set, and leads into me for $25. This looks like a weak bet, perhaps protecting an overpair (maybe JJ, QQ or even KK), this would induce a raise from me for sure. Probably to around $70. If he then re-raised me allin, I would be forced to call and pay off his set. See how much more effective leading into the raiser is than the checkraise? He got my whole stack instead of by 4x BB raise and a pot-sized bet on the flop. I love getting checkraised. But I HATE when people lead into me. It almost always works. If you are a new player and have not studied SS yet, for the love of God go out and buy it. Study it till you know it word for word, then go and apply the theories and rake in the chips. Let people checkraise you till they're blue in the face, and laugh. I can remember the last time I checkraised. I thinik it might be the only time since I read SS that I have checkraised. I was in a tourny and had a big stack with an aggressive, crafty table image. I limped preflop with 78s in MP, there were a couple LP limpers. The flop came AAJ, and it checked around on the flop. The turn card came an 8. Checked around again, to the button who threw out a 1/4 pot sized bet that SCREAMED of weakness, so i put him allin (he was shortstacked). Everyone folded and I took down a small pot with a check-raise. Do you people checkraise a lot? If you do, and it works for you, then maybe I'm missing something. I think that new players should consider leading into the raiser, it is a very strong NLH move.Trav

[tekn0wledg]

I agree with this point 100%. I only check raise when I know I have an aggressive opponent(s) behind me who are certain to bet and I have a monster. At this point this hand would be able to be slow played without risk of losing, maybe quads or a boat, and then I'll gladly smooth call and then check raise on the turn or river depending on the feel for the hand.

[KramitDaToad]

I agree, in NLH the 'pure' check-raise is rarely the most profitable play with a strong hand.This is opposed to Limit where you are trying to squeeze 1 more bet out of an opponent and the check-raise can be more profitable.However there are a few situations in NLH where I still get good value out of a check-raise, although it can no longer be used as a 'big cannon' and needs to be teamed with other factors.The first is when I'm trying to 'buy' a table image. For example, after joining a table I will often check-raise trips and sometimes sets as well. If these hands don't go to a showdown I'll still show my hole cards and establish the fact that I check-raise with the goods.After a few of these I'm set to attempt a bluff any time a mid to small pair hits the board. Call the flop, check-raise the turn, take down the pot. This play works very well against stronger opponents who will notice that you are:a) Putting a strong move against a preflop raiserB) Following a pattern where you have had strong cards in the pastAgainst fish who have the memory span of, well... a fish, then this play is of course useless.I think the early loss of EV for the check-raises pays off through the middle of a session as my bluffs hold up.Later in a session when my image has moved from my hard earned 'rock' and closer to the truth the check raise comes into play with monster hands later in the betting.For these hands I'll bet into the raiser with a bet of about 3/4's of the pot and with body language that screams 'weak'. This seems to get the best results as a small weak lead puts good players on guard and a pot sized bet into a raised pot can scare off a lot of action.As I said before, if my image of rock is gone and my opponent knows I'm capable of a bluff, I will quite often get action. The best result here is a raise from the original raiser (which I simply call), but a call is often as good. Now, check-raising the turn seems to come off fairly well. The check shows weakness, the pot is large, my opponent knows I bluff (a lot :wink: ) and will regularly push out a large bet to 'shake me off'.Now the check-raise really comes into it's own as the pot is often so large that they are often 'pot stuck'There are a few other situations I can think of but I think I've made my point that in NLH the check-raise needs to be more subtle and combined with other factors of the game.

[KKsuited]

I started a thread about this a while back. IMO, people who check raise a lot are inexperienced players who think they've learned some great poker move. In reality, most of the time it is a bad move.Basically elimanating the check raise from my game has allowed me to take my game up a notch. You'll see how much better you can accumulate chips by not slowplaying anything. I've also saved myself from getting busted a few times by basically playing everything fast. (Here's where I insert "never say never") Sometimes a slowplay may be in order (I only do it when I think the other guy may try to bluff off all his chips).Here's how I some up why you don't slowplay:Slowplaying makes people fear you. Contradictory to what many players think, you don't want people to be affraid of putting money in the pot. If you checkraise someone, they will be afraid to bet next time. SO then when you hit a big hand, they won't pay you off. I used to love scaring people and making them fold all the time, but then I realized I was never acumulating enough chips to win tournaments.We've all seen it before. The "one guy" playing really fast. Lots of raises, reraises, etc. Finally we get pissed, start calling him down with crap. Then we get in a big pot with him thinking he has nothing and he busts you with the nuts. I like to be that "one guy."The next trick to learn.....How to play fast without being an idiot.That will be another topic for another day.

[weirdboy]

I have often gotten my opponents to fold better holdings (like, they show their cards and heave a big sigh) by check-raising them. This only works, however, if you also sometimes check-raise with the goods.

[pokerkid]

I think u guys are underestimating the value of check raising. First of all, when you are in early position with agressive players who like to bluff large amounts behind you, check raising is a way to trap them. You can also use check-raising to eliminate someone who's on a draw and semi-bluffing by coming over the top and squeezing a few more chips from the player. Also if you check raise early in a game and showdown a good hand people will respect your checks, and you can see alot of free cards later if you're on a draw. And as previously mentioned if you show down a few monsters while check raising early in the game, check-raise bluffing is invaluable.

[KKsuited]

I think you're missing the point Pokerkid. I agree with a few of your examples, but most of what you are saying is exactly why I (from what it says in Supersystem - please read) say you shouldn't check raise.One example - you talk about players respecting your checks, so you can draw to hands. Uh, exactly what Doyle says not to do.So great, you hit your draw. You think they're going to put money in now? I doubt it.You want people to fire away, so when you hit you'll get paid off.I guess just read SuperSystem. If you've already read it, reread it.If you want to accumulate chips and win big tournaments, get rid of the check raise. I guess I have to qualify it by saying, yes - there are times when it might be the right play, but rarely.

[SexyStudThang]

Check raising is a play that is obvious to anyone that witnesses it. It screams strength, and ususally "Commits" the raiser to play the rest of the pot. But using it, and reading it, are both very hard concepts and are entirely dependent on the game you're playing in. I'll describe my home game really quick, and explain how the check-raise is applied to pots there...Our game is a 1/2NL game, not high stakes by any means, but if you've heard me refer to it in previous posts you'll understand that it has some very high quality players in it, that should be playing much bigger stakes and just arent for different reasons (Mostly the free food and drinks, plus it's fun and you're not risking a ton of money, but still making $300 for the night at least sounds significant). At any given time there are at least 4-6 STRONG players at the table. I dont mean "good" players, I mean strong. They could run over the best 5/10 NL game's in Vegas, and hold their own at any higher level. Im not saying that Im necessarily one of them, but Im up there. Anyway the rest of the table is usually half tight "new" (1-2 year) players that know the starting hands, but dont know the power of loose play for big pots just yet, and then the loose cannon drug dealers with way too much money and pride. OK anyway on to what the check raise means at this game. Any of the strong players and any of the new guys all understand what it means to get check raised, the difference is the strong players will understand who it's coming from. If they're check raised by a new player they're going to lay down the hand, if they're check raised by a drug dealer they're going to examine what they've done to his pride and will probably play more marginal holdings in this situation, but still nothing short of 2-par or a monster draw. I know that I can check raise any new player off of their hand if thye were the preflop raiser just by how much they bet and by all the signals I get as to the strength of their hand. I'll often do this on draws because leading into them does nothing, and they WILL NOT raise me if I check raise them. They know that Im good, and they understand what a check raise means, so when I do this on a strong draw, Im likely to get the pot right there and not make my hand. This doesnt always work, but the check raise bluff is a strong tool against begining players. Against the strong players is where the check raise get's a bit quirky. Many times a strong player will follow up his preflop raise with the bet when he's checked to, so very often I find myself check raising a holding as good as top pair, feeling confident in the hand, and knowing that a lead wont get me any more money, either that or get ME raised at which point I'll have to release the strong hand. I put them to the decision rather than me. I obviously dont always do this, but I almost never check raise with a strong hand. My strong hands are usually going to be hands I lead into them with, because at this point Im not putting them to the decision for their stack, just whether to call the bet. And since strong players would prefer that their opponent have the decision, I find myself getting raised more often than not, rarely just called, and otherwise I take the pot there. I change gears between where I make my bluffs throughout the night so that I dont get picked off doing the same thing too much, but that's how a check raise works in our game. So I described 3 different players, 3 different ways that the check raise is going to play out. So next time someone check raises you, amd you know they're good...you might just be winning. It's always a move that showes strength, but not always a player with a strong holding. I know this wasnt the most coherent and thought out post I've ever posted but I hope you can get some important information from it....-Brent

[KKsuited]

You lost me at "could run over the 5/10 NL game in vegas". The best players play the high limit games, but some of the best players in the world play no limit at that level in vegas.Your guys would have to be very, very good, plus have a huge bankroll. If these guys could "run over the 5/10 NL in vegas", they should definitely give up their day job.

[Smasharoo]

KKsuited said:

You lost me at "could run over the 5/10 NL game in vegas".  The best players play the high limit games, but some of the best players in the world play no limit at that level in vegas.Your guys would have to be very, very good, plus have a huge bankroll.  If these guys could "run over the 5/10 NL in vegas", they should definitely give up their day job.

For future refrence, anyone who is better than a poster is amazingly good because all posters could quit thier jobs and make a living playing poker if they just felt like it. Note key phrases like this one that demonstrate that:Our game is a 1/2NL game, not high stakes by any means, but if you've heard me refer to it in previous posts you'll understand that it has some very high quality players in it, that should be playing much bigger stakes and just arent for different reasonsReality check time. You and all your freinds playing in your $1/$2 home game are with 99% certainty BARELY AVERAGE.Have a nice day.

[t-bone]

Now, now boys. There's no need to whore up this thread with "I'm better than you" posts. We're all here to learn things. I posted this to ask if I was missing out on opporitunities in ly game where I COULD GET MORE CHIPS if I checkraised. Isn't this entire forum about getting more chips. I bet you if you asked Daniel thats exactly what he would say. This forum is here to improve people's play, not berate people we've never even met.Please stay on topic.Trav

[Smasharoo]

I posted this to ask if I was missing out on opporitunities in ly game where I COULD GET MORE CHIPS if I checkraised.I think you ussually get more chips if you check/call actually. If you're check raising with a hand that you'd like to protect, like a set on a board with a flush draw just bet out. If you're trying to get value from a monster without any obvious redraws that hurt you check/calling works very well. You show weakness intnetionally and often your opponenet keeps betting into you on the trun and the river and you raise at the end. Check-raising really don't mean anything anymore. People bluff C/R all the time espcially on coordinated boards. Check/calling...now THAT's confusing to an opponent.

[SexyStudThang]

Smasharoo said:

KKsuited said:

You lost me at "could run over the 5/10 NL game in vegas".  The best players play the high limit games, but some of the best players in the world play no limit at that level in vegas.Your guys would have to be very, very good, plus have a huge bankroll.  If these guys could "run over the 5/10 NL in vegas", they should definitely give up their day job.

For future refrence, anyone who is better than a poster is amazingly good because all posters could quit thier jobs and make a living playing poker if they just felt like it. Note key phrases like this one that demonstrate that:Our game is a 1/2NL game, not high stakes by any means, but if you've heard me refer to it in previous posts you'll understand that it has some very high quality players in it, that should be playing much bigger stakes and just arent for different reasonsReality check time. You and all your freinds playing in your $1/$2 home game are with 99% certainty BARELY AVERAGE.Have a nice day.

I never said that I could run over 5/10 NL games, and I also never explained why these players are good. The reality here is the players Im referring to DON'T have day jobs, and this 1/2 game is by no means a game that concers their bankrolls at all, they just dont live in vegas. The 1/2 games for them are fun, but Im not exxagerating when Im saying 5/10 NL is an easy game for them to break. In my experience, the 5/10 NL games arent the hardest games to play at anyway, all of these guys Im referring to have at least cashed in a WPT event, some in WSOP events, they just arent on TV. I promise you they are not BARELY AVERAGE, though I have no way of proving that in much the same way you had no reason to post a reply in a strategy forum berrating players you've never met in a game you've never played at. I highly doubt that T-bone appreciates the post, nor does anyone else reading it think it's pertinent. Readers are free to dissect what I say to determine whether Im up to par enough to be giving advice, and as far as describing my environment at my game: It's hard to state with such conviction that you're sure that the players at my table are barely average...The post was about check raising versus leading into the raiser and I think that I covered that as well as I can with5 minutes of my time...and I find that neither of your posts addressed the issue at hand. It's unfortunate that you felt the need to post such things, and even more unfortunate that I have to clog T-bone's very pertinent topic with a response to the afore-mentioned childish post, but I can't let something like that go: if no one says anything you'll never learn and that's part of growing up! :green:

[SexyStudThang]

Smasharoo said:

I posted this to ask if I was missing out on opporitunities in ly game where I COULD GET MORE CHIPS if I checkraised.I think you ussually get more chips if you check/call actually.  If you're check raising with a hand that you'd like to protect, like a set on a board with a flush draw just bet out.  If you're trying to get value from a monster without any obvious redraws that hurt you check/calling works very well.  You show weakness intnetionally and often your opponenet keeps betting into you on the trun and the river and you raise at the end.  Check-raising really don't mean anything anymore.  People bluff C/R all the time espcially on coordinated boards.  Check/calling...now THAT's confusing to an opponent.

As far as this post is concerned I must further question your basis for berrating my post, because check calling is not a confusing play to most players at the higher level. The hands that a weak player would check call with are not hands a strong player is going to play soft (any good draw, bad board pairings etc). Check calling a a good way to lose a lot of chips with marginal holdings for the most part, and the stronger players understand this. So seeing the check call made against you from a player that you know is strong is most likely not something you want to play against, because a lot of good players check call to disguise the strength of their good holdings, but against a well trained opponent they're giving up a lot of free cards on that turn! Then it gets into he said she said and you have to determine whether your opponent knows that you know exactly what the check call means, but that's the exact same way a check raise plays out, the only difference being the check call can only be a delayed bluff when the check raise is an immediate one. I could elaborate more, but this is not a post about the check call, Im simply pointing out a lot of information that you neglected to post- maybe from lack of knowledge? Whatever the case I think if you're questioning the ability of others you should post a bit more informed and intelligent answers, that's what people in a forum are looking for: not temper tantrums :green: I also think any other responses should be sent to me directly so that t-bone's post doesnt become something that he didnt want it to become, perhaps make a new topic focusing around how much better you are than everyone else? It does seem appropriate there, but not here.