To me, every single thing in this world that is attributed to God can be explained without the assistance of a metaphysical being. I have not once heard a "miracle" story from someone that wasn't A. explainable or B. wasn't a lie
I would like to take this challenge a bit further, though. I am quite confident that everyone's desire to give themselves to God can be explained psychologically.
If you're interested in taking part in this, answer a few questions for me. What events lead up to your first serious consideration (just talking about consideration.. not the the day you crossed over) to Christianity and God? From your first consideration to giving your life to God, what events were currently going on then? What thought processes did you find yourself going through in both time periods? Was your acceptance of God full of emotion or emotionless? If emotionless, what line of thought did you go through that ended with you giving yourself to God? If your acceptance was full of emotion, what were those emotions and describe as best you can what you think was the cause of those emotions.
We can get to the bottom of this together :-) Of course, I'm sure there will be a lot of denial, lying, stubbornness, and unwillingness to share the full and complete truth, but if anyone wants to take a serious shot with me... then feel free to be the first response!
1
What First Influence Made You Even Look Twice At Christianity?
Started by jmkiser, Jan 29 2007 11:37 AM
94 replies to this topic
#1
jmkiser
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 11:37 AM
I was not lying. I said things that later on seemed to be untrue. - Richard Nixon
People come to Washington believing it is the center of power. It was only much later that I learned that Washington is a steering wheel that's not connected to an engine.
I look at the Senators and pray for this country.
It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country.
People come to Washington believing it is the center of power. It was only much later that I learned that Washington is a steering wheel that's not connected to an engine.
I look at the Senators and pray for this country.
It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country.
#2
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 12:43 PM
I think you're intentionally looking for a blood bath here, whether consciously or not. Hence, I don't think this thread has any chance of being productive.
#3
LongLiveYorke
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 01:10 PM
I'm not sure that everybody who is a Christian has had a moment of first consideration or whatever you're trying to pinpoint exactly. I would venture to guess that many of them (obviously not all, there are many "born again's" or whatever) were raised on Christianity from birth and therefore don't recall or really have a moment when they first started thinking about it.
#4
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 01:14 PM
QUOTE (LongLiveYorke @ Monday, January 29th, 2007, 4:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not sure that everybody who is a Christian has had a moment of first consideration or whatever you're trying to pinpoint exactly. I would venture to guess that many of them (obviously not all, there are many "born again's" or whatever) were raised on Christianity from birth and therefore don't recall or really have a moment when they first started thinking about it.
I suspect you are correct. A lot of followers of any religion generally only are because of socialization. Religious beliefs tend to be something passed from generation to generation.
That's not to say that is the way it should be but truthfully that's likely the way it is for a lot of people. Even as a Christian I see that in other Christians and find it irksome.
#5
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 01:33 PM
I admit that maybe I might be looking for a bloodbath, but I will be completely honest in saying that this was all done with serious intention. I've had talks with many Christians about this and everything that lead them to where they are today is completely explainable. Everyone of them denies my psychoanalysis, but that's expected due to the nature of the religion. My ability to psychoanalyze is also quite immature due the fact that I haven't actually studied what it takes, but Christians aren't really that difficult. Now, realistically, I couldn't come near to helping someone who was bipolar just to put it in perspective.
Many Christians do seem to be so just because of family ties, but I've found that many of the more "new-age" Christians (as I like to call them) really had parents that never cared about religion. I've seen numerous cases of people in emotional distress that were introduced to attending church by a friend, colleague, well... you get the picture. They then find the enjoyable community that they've always desired and the group therapy that they've wanted and needed. Tell half of these people that they believe in a omniscient metaphysical being and they'll look at you in complete confusion.
Many of these "new-age" Christians have taken it a step further and really get into the Christian propaganda to try and support thoughts that they really, honestly, don't care about or believe. They defend their religion more to keep the positives that they have been able to achieve rather then to actually prove that their God exists. As long as the religion isn't completely dashed into impossibility, then they can keep gaining what they like out of the religion (and continue to erase what they don't like ;-))
I'm rambling, though, because my base example keeps expanding and becoming more definitive lol
Basically, every Christian I know can be defined and explained without the use of religion.
Many Christians do seem to be so just because of family ties, but I've found that many of the more "new-age" Christians (as I like to call them) really had parents that never cared about religion. I've seen numerous cases of people in emotional distress that were introduced to attending church by a friend, colleague, well... you get the picture. They then find the enjoyable community that they've always desired and the group therapy that they've wanted and needed. Tell half of these people that they believe in a omniscient metaphysical being and they'll look at you in complete confusion.
Many of these "new-age" Christians have taken it a step further and really get into the Christian propaganda to try and support thoughts that they really, honestly, don't care about or believe. They defend their religion more to keep the positives that they have been able to achieve rather then to actually prove that their God exists. As long as the religion isn't completely dashed into impossibility, then they can keep gaining what they like out of the religion (and continue to erase what they don't like ;-))
I'm rambling, though, because my base example keeps expanding and becoming more definitive lol
Basically, every Christian I know can be defined and explained without the use of religion.
I was not lying. I said things that later on seemed to be untrue. - Richard Nixon
People come to Washington believing it is the center of power. It was only much later that I learned that Washington is a steering wheel that's not connected to an engine.
I look at the Senators and pray for this country.
It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country.
People come to Washington believing it is the center of power. It was only much later that I learned that Washington is a steering wheel that's not connected to an engine.
I look at the Senators and pray for this country.
It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country.
#6
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 01:52 PM
QUOTE (jmkiser @ Monday, January 29th, 2007, 4:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I admit that maybe I might be looking for a bloodbath, but I will be completely honest in saying that this was all done with serious intention. I've had talks with many Christians about this and everything that lead them to where they are today is completely explainable. Everyone of them denies my psychoanalysis, but that's expected due to the nature of the religion. My ability to psychoanalyze is also quite immature due the fact that I haven't actually studied what it takes, but Christians aren't really that difficult. Now, realistically, I couldn't come near to helping someone who was bipolar just to put it in perspective.
Many Christians do seem to be so just because of family ties, but I've found that many of the more "new-age" Christians (as I like to call them) really had parents that never cared about religion. I've seen numerous cases of people in emotional distress that were introduced to attending church by a friend, colleague, well... you get the picture. They then find the enjoyable community that they've always desired and the group therapy that they've wanted and needed. Tell half of these people that they believe in a omniscient metaphysical being and they'll look at you in complete confusion.
Many of these "new-age" Christians have taken it a step further and really get into the Christian propaganda to try and support thoughts that they really, honestly, don't care about or believe. They defend their religion more to keep the positives that they have been able to achieve rather then to actually prove that their God exists. As long as the religion isn't completely dashed into impossibility, then they can keep gaining what they like out of the religion (and continue to erase what they don't like ;-))
I'm rambling, though, because my base example keeps expanding and becoming more definitive lol
Basically, every Christian I know can be defined and explained without the use of religion.
Many Christians do seem to be so just because of family ties, but I've found that many of the more "new-age" Christians (as I like to call them) really had parents that never cared about religion. I've seen numerous cases of people in emotional distress that were introduced to attending church by a friend, colleague, well... you get the picture. They then find the enjoyable community that they've always desired and the group therapy that they've wanted and needed. Tell half of these people that they believe in a omniscient metaphysical being and they'll look at you in complete confusion.
Many of these "new-age" Christians have taken it a step further and really get into the Christian propaganda to try and support thoughts that they really, honestly, don't care about or believe. They defend their religion more to keep the positives that they have been able to achieve rather then to actually prove that their God exists. As long as the religion isn't completely dashed into impossibility, then they can keep gaining what they like out of the religion (and continue to erase what they don't like ;-))
I'm rambling, though, because my base example keeps expanding and becoming more definitive lol
Basically, every Christian I know can be defined and explained without the use of religion.
While I'm still not willing to participate in your psychoanalysis I will tell you that my own acceptance of Christianity comes from my acceptance of Jesus' divinity. Namely I believe that the Resurrection was an actual historical event explainable only by Jesus being God. While I do find a lot of "emotional positives" I also find that Christianity is a difficult path to follow and I believe it would be much more convenient for me to believe otherwise. What I mean is that my life would probably be a lot easier if I wasn't a Christian so if anything I have a selfish incentive to disbelieve.
While I fully expect someone to rehash the debate over the underlying truth of my beliefs I really don't care to get into it again (there are other threads where that has been debated over and over). I'm only offering them in the spirit of your attempt to psychoanalyze away belief in Christianity.
#7
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Posted 29 January 2007 - 02:03 PM
I appreciate your response.
It would be impossible to analyze you from the information you've provided anyway and I definitely don't want to push someone who doesn't want to be pushed :-) To do this takes discussion of yourself prior to your acceptance of the divinity of Jesus.
To me, Christianity in it's strictest form would be damn hard to follow. I believe few to none take the religion in it's strictest and MOST literal forms. Those who do their best to follow the religion as best they can, though, I commend them for their efforts no matter my beliefs.
I also notice that a lot of people use Christianity as a sort of discipline that keeps them in check. They mention that Christianity is hard, but I don't see them stoning women with long hair. I ask what's hard about it and then they talk about trying to lead as sinless of a life as possible. This makes me sad because I believe many Christians cut out many of the fun things of life that can really be a great experience as long as they could handle it maturely. Instead of allowing themselves to be free and responsible, they cut off the possibility of allowing themselves to become irresponsible and call it "leading the sinless life"
It would be impossible to analyze you from the information you've provided anyway and I definitely don't want to push someone who doesn't want to be pushed :-) To do this takes discussion of yourself prior to your acceptance of the divinity of Jesus.
To me, Christianity in it's strictest form would be damn hard to follow. I believe few to none take the religion in it's strictest and MOST literal forms. Those who do their best to follow the religion as best they can, though, I commend them for their efforts no matter my beliefs.
I also notice that a lot of people use Christianity as a sort of discipline that keeps them in check. They mention that Christianity is hard, but I don't see them stoning women with long hair. I ask what's hard about it and then they talk about trying to lead as sinless of a life as possible. This makes me sad because I believe many Christians cut out many of the fun things of life that can really be a great experience as long as they could handle it maturely. Instead of allowing themselves to be free and responsible, they cut off the possibility of allowing themselves to become irresponsible and call it "leading the sinless life"
I was not lying. I said things that later on seemed to be untrue. - Richard Nixon
People come to Washington believing it is the center of power. It was only much later that I learned that Washington is a steering wheel that's not connected to an engine.
I look at the Senators and pray for this country.
It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country.
People come to Washington believing it is the center of power. It was only much later that I learned that Washington is a steering wheel that's not connected to an engine.
I look at the Senators and pray for this country.
It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country.
#8
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 06:01 AM
QUOTE (jmkiser @ Monday, January 29th, 2007, 5:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I appreciate your response.
It would be impossible to analyze you from the information you've provided anyway and I definitely don't want to push someone who doesn't want to be pushed :-) To do this takes discussion of yourself prior to your acceptance of the divinity of Jesus.
To me, Christianity in it's strictest form would be damn hard to follow. I believe few to none take the religion in it's strictest and MOST literal forms. Those who do their best to follow the religion as best they can, though, I commend them for their efforts no matter my beliefs.
I also notice that a lot of people use Christianity as a sort of discipline that keeps them in check. They mention that Christianity is hard, but I don't see them stoning women with long hair. I ask what's hard about it and then they talk about trying to lead as sinless of a life as possible. This makes me sad because I believe many Christians cut out many of the fun things of life that can really be a great experience as long as they could handle it maturely. Instead of allowing themselves to be free and responsible, they cut off the possibility of allowing themselves to become irresponsible and call it "leading the sinless life"
It would be impossible to analyze you from the information you've provided anyway and I definitely don't want to push someone who doesn't want to be pushed :-) To do this takes discussion of yourself prior to your acceptance of the divinity of Jesus.
To me, Christianity in it's strictest form would be damn hard to follow. I believe few to none take the religion in it's strictest and MOST literal forms. Those who do their best to follow the religion as best they can, though, I commend them for their efforts no matter my beliefs.
I also notice that a lot of people use Christianity as a sort of discipline that keeps them in check. They mention that Christianity is hard, but I don't see them stoning women with long hair. I ask what's hard about it and then they talk about trying to lead as sinless of a life as possible. This makes me sad because I believe many Christians cut out many of the fun things of life that can really be a great experience as long as they could handle it maturely. Instead of allowing themselves to be free and responsible, they cut off the possibility of allowing themselves to become irresponsible and call it "leading the sinless life"
The point I was trying to make is that my acceptance had little or nothing to do with psychology. I accept it as fact just as I accept the hardness of the desk I am sitting at as fact.
Christianity isn't really as bad as you make it sound. It's not about living as sinless a life as possible. Yes, sin is bad but it is important to understand why. I'll go into more depth on my thoughts if you like but sin is something that alienates you from God. Being Christian means wanting a relationship with God. However, your relationship doesn't end when you sin. It creates a rift which is why reconciliation is such a huge part of Christianity. It's not the sin that counts so much as the lack of repentance.
I also understand where you are coming from regarding self denial vs. responsible fun, I've spent time on both sides of that fence. However, just like we refer to God as Father, He is like a parent to us. When we are children we (generally) obey our parents and accept their rules because they are wiser and want what is best for us. When you compare that to the infinite love and wisdom of God it is easy to see that if God tells us something or sets a rule for us, He is doing so for our own good. To substitute your own wisdom for God's is simply arrogant (assuming, of course, that you believe in God). When you believe in eternal life, the eternal joy that God promises far outweighs any perceived sacrifice in this life.
#9
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 10:23 AM
QUOTE (semaj550 @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 9:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The point I was trying to make is that my acceptance had little or nothing to do with psychology. I accept it as fact just as I accept the hardness of the desk I am sitting at as fact.
How did you come to accept this 'fact' that cannot be proven? It most definitely was NOT like 'the hardness of a desk' because we can see, touch and measure it and compare it to the definition of the word 'hard'.
#10
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 03:21 PM
My mom was baptized when I was 5. We went to church all day sunday,tuesday night, wednesday morning she went door to door once she was ready to teach,thursday night there was a class geared to just non-members. Everybody was real loving and we saw them constantly- it was easy to see as I grew up who lived it and who didn't, and it was easy to see Gods hand on both sides of the story, whether blessing or punishment. Really, what sold me as I grew up was 2 things- one, the people and the way they lived it, and 2, the thing they told my mom when I was a kid is still true to this day- they never use anything but the bible. We are connected in no way to anything mainstream, it's very low key, humble, like Jesus. I like that- love it, really.
Nothing real miraculous about it.
Nothing real miraculous about it.
So much for a comeback.
#11
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 05:18 PM
Everyone that sees a UFO is crazy until you see a UFO. Then it was either swamp gas or it enthralls you. You shouldn't be asking Christians why they believe, but asking yourself if you had that similar experience would you be honest with yourself.
PS: It will be explained away by (by and large) total jerk offs who didn't feel it. Maybe even on the internet.
Edit:By the way: The UFO thing was an analogy. I don't believe in god because I saw aliens.
PS: It will be explained away by (by and large) total jerk offs who didn't feel it. Maybe even on the internet.
Edit:By the way: The UFO thing was an analogy. I don't believe in god because I saw aliens.
#12
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 05:55 PM
QUOTE (Livaso @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 8:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everyone that sees a UFO is crazy until you see a UFO. Then it was either swamp gas or it enthralls you. You shouldn't be asking Christians why they believe, but asking yourself if you had that similar experience would you be honest with yourself.
PS: It will be explained away by (by and large) total jerk offs who didn't feel it. Maybe even on the internet.
Edit:By the way: The UFO thing was an analogy. I don't believe in god because I saw aliens.
PS: It will be explained away by (by and large) total jerk offs who didn't feel it. Maybe even on the internet.
Edit:By the way: The UFO thing was an analogy. I don't believe in god because I saw aliens.
HUH??? What experience? Aliens? Stigmata? Forehead touching? I'm confused. If i had an experience and I didn't know what it was how would I know whether I was being honest with myself with whatever method of explaination I decided upon?
#13
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 06:01 PM
QUOTE (Livaso @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 5:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
PS: It will be explained away by (by and large) total jerk offs who didn't feel it.
Maybe even on the internet.
Maybe even on the internet.
ok, since you asked
it is an easily demonstratable fact that people frequently believe things that are obviously false based on emotionalistic response to personal experience. thus any belief based on emotionalism triggered by experience that is *not mutually testable* in any other way is necessarily unreliable - even if it is your own experience(!)
QUOTE
Everyone that sees a UFO is crazy until you see a UFO. Then it was either swamp gas or it enthralls you. You shouldn't be asking Christians why they believe, but asking yourself if you had that similar experience would you be honest with yourself.
similar emotionalistic experiences that lead to christian belief also lead others to believe in various religions/cults that are mutually exclusive with christianity. how do you know they aren't being honest with themselves but you are? (or are you a closet solipsist pretending to be christian lol)
#14
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 06:12 PM
Good response, more thoughtful and less condescening than mine, now hopefully we get some 'honest' answers to it.
#15
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 06:12 PM
QUOTE (BWToth @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 5:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
HUH??? What experience? Aliens? Stigmata? Forehead touching? I'm confused. If i had an experience and I didn't know what it was how would I know whether I was being honest with myself with whatever method of explaination I decided upon?
You see a UFO clear as day. What it was isn't going to be what will require your honesty. Its whether you're willing to accept you saw what you saw, felt the emotions you felt and whether or not it will alter your paradigm. Because you'll feel like you're in the torture room in 1984, with the guy telling you "2+2=3" and it'll get to the point where you'll start believing him.
The actual experience is personal. But I will say it made me believe in god on a level I hadn't previously. I know I felt it and the question is if you had a similar one, where you felt something change inside you, how brave would you be in assimilating that experience into your life.
Like I said. It was either swamp gas or it enthralls you. Your answer is invalid as of right now because you haven't experienced it yet and still look at it from a standpoint that "Everyone that sees a UFO is crazy"
I find that to be a good example because its pretty easy for people to put themselves in that position. And its the 1 other thing besides religion that changes people's perspectives of it when it happens to them.
I don't know where I actually stand on UFOs and such. But thanks to my experience I know not to make up my mind because I haven't seen one. I still think everyone that sees a UFO is crazy.
As you might feel reading this forum when people talk about God
#16
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 06:13 PM
Ok, I screwed this up, please answer crow's post instead. Thanks.
#17
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 06:16 PM
QUOTE (crowTrobot @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 6:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ok, since you asked
it is an easily demonstratable fact that people frequently believe things that are obviously false based on emotionalistic response to personal experience. thus any belief based on emotionalism triggered by experience that is *not mutually testable* in any other way is necessarily unreliable - even if it is your own experience(!)
it is an easily demonstratable fact that people frequently believe things that are obviously false based on emotionalistic response to personal experience. thus any belief based on emotionalism triggered by experience that is *not mutually testable* in any other way is necessarily unreliable - even if it is your own experience(!)
Swamp gas.
#18
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#19
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 06:36 PM
QUOTE (BWToth @ Tuesday, January 30th, 2007, 6:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
non-christian cults.
What like love? If you see a person and you fall in love with them, and you feel like your brain is having a biochemical reaction that's making you feel a sexual impulse between yourself and a random member of the same species as you, you don't deserve it to be anything more than that. You've assimilated that experience quite nicely.
People's views change of the world when they have a child. "Oh well obviously the psychology of parenthood coupled with"
Indeed.
Its tough to use a cult argument from someone who's stating individual path to an end.
Figure out what you'd tell yourself if you saw A UFO, felt a religious experience or fell in love.
Just don't be so quick to judge.
As for repeatability, I have another analogy:
lets say you were involved in a lottery and you only had to pick 1 number, anything between 1 and infinity. What are the odds of picking the right number? 1 in infinity. An amount low enough to be considered 0.
What if your number hits on the first try? repeat it to show its possible. with the odds of you making it being a little better than 0.0000etc
You can't ask for repeatability in unique experiences
#20
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Posted 30 January 2007 - 07:15 PM
That as nothing to do with it. It's about the egotistical nature of Christians. What makes you're 'unique experience' the correct one, or that one that is truly meaningful when there are billions of people that have similar experiences that lead them to a god that christians deem to be the wrong one, a god that will ultimately lead them to hell, but that was derived inside them from a nearly identical experience and 'honesty'.
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