15 replies to this topic

[Naismith]

The gentleman in question is a rock. He is the rockiest rock rock rock rock on earth. He rarely ever raises preflop, limping with AA, KK, AK, etc. (which he somehow gets like 20 times per night). Post-flop, he will raise with big hands, but check-call with top pair type hands. He also loves to slow play. He will see flops with suited connectors and pocket pairs for cheap enough, but he's too tight to get any value when he hits since most people fold to his raises.

I have seen him try one bluff in three years about a year ago. I caught him on the bluff when I flopped two pair and almost folded the river.

A new guy doubled him up earlier this evening when he limped for two dollars and the new guy went all in from the button for 450 into a five dollar pot. Unfortunately, his A7 didn't hold up against the rock's AA.

Rock: 920
Hero: 850

Hero is the CO with 88.

UTG limps, hero makes it 6, rock calls from button, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop is 10-10-7.

Check. Check. I bet 16. Rock calls. Fold. Fold.

Turn is 8.

Hero bets 60. Rock calls.

River J.

Hero bets 150. Rock goes all in. Hero?

My table image is wildly aggressive and extremely loose.

[wsox8]

does he think a 9 is good? I call here and if he shows something like J-10 then I say nh and then probably leave and get him in the parking lot.

[bdc30]

Gotta call.

[Naismith]

does he think a 9 is good? I call here and if he shows something like J-10 then I say nh and then probably leave and get him in the parking lot.

He might think a 9 is good, but there's nothing in any of my history with him that suggests he'd raise with it. While I was thinking it through, I thought about 10-9 as a possibility since that would make it more likely his straight is good.

[Eric Smith]

You have to call. Although it does kinda smell like he has jacks.

[litlebullet]

You say that he loves to slowplay and you also say that he loves to get in cheap with suited connectors if he gets in cheap enough. This is wild speculation, but he may have flopped the full house with 10 7. Not saying this is likely, but it is possible. Even a rock would know better than to slowplay 10 J after the turn hits, I would hope. There is one thing for certain though, and that's that our rock friend does not think the naked nine is good.

[Sea Wasp]

If your read on this player is accurate (and we would think that after 3 years it is) then he is never raising this river with just a 9. We need to put him squarely on TT, JJ or 77.

However i question whether he is actually playing the way you describe. Many 'rocks' take advantage of their image 1 or 2 times a night to steal big pots like these on very scary boards. They are not idiots and realise that you realise he is very very tight so he may be making a play.

Against an unknown with no reads this is of course an insta call, however noone can advise you on this hand because whether you call or not is based entirely on your read of this player after playing with him over the years. If you really believe he is never bluffing then the only hand he could have that you beat is 77.

[TraptSteve]

Does he reraise with PP < A-A or K-K when someone raises PF?

I think there is some info missing that might paint a clearer picture. I doubt he pushes the river with q-10 + on that board, that is of course if he is a good player.

To me it looks like you're beat, but call hoping he's making his once-every-blue-moon-kamakazee-bluff's or maybe 7-7.

sucks that the trips is higher than your set; you have no idea if he's paired his kicker if he indeed has the 10, in this case.


bad beat?

[Naismith]

If your read on this player is accurate (and we would think that after 3 years it is) then he is never raising this river with just a 9. We need to put him squarely on TT, JJ or 77.

However i question whether he is actually playing the way you describe. Many 'rocks' take advantage of their image 1 or 2 times a night to steal big pots like these on very scary boards. They are not idiots and realise that you realise he is very very tight so he may be making a play.

Against an unknown with no reads this is of course an insta call, however noone can advise you on this hand because whether you call or not is based entirely on your read of this player after playing with him over the years. If you really believe he is never bluffing then the only hand he could have that you beat is 77.

I agree with your analysis and this was what was going on in my head at the time. Through sheer optimism, I included 10-9 as a possibility, although in retrospect, that was just to convince myself to call.

As for the second part of your response...I'm sure he's used his image to his advantage at times. However, I've certainly never seen him in a big pot without a big hand. I think if he does bluff, it's picking up smaller pots, but again, I've only seen him get caught one time.

Knowing that he's not raising this river without a boat, I guess this is a folding situation. Can that possibly be right? I did call and he turned over the one hand I could beat...77. I'm getting over 2:1 on the river with the possible holdings of the villain being JJ, TT, 77, JT and maybe 10-8, of which I can only beat one. Knowing he has to have the boat here, what's the worst hand I have to call with? 10-7, right? I can beat 77, 88 and lose to JJ, JT, the second of which is less likely due to the ten in my hand.

I hate folding, so all of this talk about folding boats is crazy to me. That's why I posted this hand, because I think it's the right play here.

Also, any comments on my betting?

[JLocke]

I don't think I like a call in this spot. You guys are 400 bb's deep, getting all in with the rockiest rock of them all when all we beat is an unlikely T9 is not very good IMO. He's much more likely to have something like TJ, JJ, or even TT if you ask me.

[David_Nicoson]

I'd like to rewind to preflop a second.

We think JT is in the rocks range.

I'm interpreting your raise to 6 as a sweetener. You're hoping to have the momentum on the flop in case everyone whiffs and build a big pot in case you hit a set.

What if we raise to 10 or 12, do we knock the rock out and buy the button?

[mtdesmoines]

The gentleman in question is a rock. He is the rockiest rock rock rock rock on earth. He rarely ever raises preflop, limping with AA, KK, AK, etc. (which he somehow gets like 20 times per night). Post-flop, he will raise with big hands, but check-call with top pair type hands. He also loves to slow play. He will see flops with suited connectors and pocket pairs for cheap enough, but he's too tight to get any value when he hits since most people fold to his raises.

I have seen him try one bluff in three years about a year ago. I caught him on the bluff when I flopped two pair and almost folded the river.

A new guy doubled him up earlier this evening when he limped for two dollars and the new guy went all in from the button for 450 into a five dollar pot. Unfortunately, his A7 didn't hold up against the rock's AA.

Rock: 920
Hero: 850

Hero is the CO with 88.

UTG limps, hero makes it 6, rock calls from button, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop is 10-10-7.

Check. Check. I bet 16. Rock calls. Fold. Fold.

Turn is 8.

Hero bets 60. Rock calls.

River J.

Hero bets 150. Rock goes all in. Hero?

My table image is wildly aggressive and extremely loose.

Tough call. You're probably looking at JJJ 10 10.

[mtdesmoines]

I agree with your analysis and this was what was going on in my head at the time. Through sheer optimism, I included 10-9 as a possibility, although in retrospect, that was just to convince myself to call.

As for the second part of your response...I'm sure he's used his image to his advantage at times. However, I've certainly never seen him in a big pot without a big hand. I think if he does bluff, it's picking up smaller pots, but again, I've only seen him get caught one time.

Knowing that he's not raising this river without a boat, I guess this is a folding situation. Can that possibly be right? I did call and he turned over the one hand I could beat...77. I'm getting over 2:1 on the river with the possible holdings of the villain being JJ, TT, 77, JT and maybe 10-8, of which I can only beat one. Knowing he has to have the boat here, what's the worst hand I have to call with? 10-7, right? I can beat 77, 88 and lose to JJ, JT, the second of which is less likely due to the ten in my hand.

I hate folding, so all of this talk about folding boats is crazy to me. That's why I posted this hand, because I think it's the right play here.

Also, any comments on my betting?

Crazy call. if he doesn't hit his boat on the flop, you never get this pot.

[DonkSlayer]

If we trust our read, it's a fold.

JJ/J10/10 10 all make sense, and not much else does, besides 77. I think 10/9 is a possibility until the push. We're betting our almost 3-buyin stack with 3 beats and one win. I can't think, again given your read, that he would push with a 9...he might raise, might. The 3-buyin stack is the biggest don't-call variable though, IMO.

[Naismith]

I'd like to rewind to preflop a second.

We think JT is in the rocks range.

I'm interpreting your raise to 6 as a sweetener. You're hoping to have the momentum on the flop in case everyone whiffs and build a big pot in case you hit a set.

What if we raise to 10 or 12, do we knock the rock out and buy the button?

If we make it 10 or 12, we most likely own the button. I don't make a lot of raises over 6 (except with a specific player who calls any raise once he limps...I keep experimenting with bigger raises with AA and have gotten him to call up to 55 so far with 8-5 of hearts after limping) and usually pump it up with a medium pair like this because I tend to win much bigger pots when I hit sets. I think that's pretty standard, right? If I get much bigger pots with medium pairs, I feel more obligated to fight for them when I miss.

[mtdesmoines]

The gentleman in question is a rock. He is the rockiest rock rock rock rock on earth. He rarely ever raises preflop, limping with AA, KK, AK, etc. (which he somehow gets like 20 times per night).

I've never understood some people's luck.
I just had a run of four 6+ hour sessions with nothing better than pocket nines.
I'm totally serious.

BBFIDTS -- the very next session, I pick up KK in my first two hands and get them cracked twice. Once to AA, and once to 5,6.

Here's a little side note about paying attention. The 5,6 raised to 10, and I didn't see it and the dealer didn't say raise. When I laid out what I thought was a 15 raise into $2 limpers, I had to take my five back and just call the ten. That let him in. He flopped a straight draw with a pair and a backdoor flush draw. Naturally, he calls off every chip he has on this strength, and he hits trips on the river.