39 replies to this topic

[cardtarget]

So I finally broke down and got poker tracker... I've been playing poker online for about 8 months now and I really needed to figure out what was going on with my game because I wasn't making the big dough like I should be. So I load poker tracker in, and finally get all of my hands imported... use the auto-rate feature... and BAM: I'm loose - aggressive - aggressive.Hmmmm... I never thought of myself as loose. I knew I played more hands than I should, but I didn't think it was THAT bad.So my VPIP is 34, which is really high apparently. Over about 11000 hands at low limits I have managed to lose a few hundred dollars, but mostly break even the last few months.For you online poker winners out there, are there any other stats I should look at specifically in poker tracker to see where my game stands and where I need to improve? Much Thanks!

[LockDown]

In the Low Limit games (5/10 and under), you'll like to get your VPiP to around 16% (+/1 2 % depending on your style). Other things to look at are the % Raise pre-flop, which I find to be around 8 or 9%. You'll want to win about 55% at least at the showdown. That's a start. Keep playing and you'll start seeing how this all fits together.....Jim

[CoranMoran]

Any recommendations on the best Poker Stat-Tracker available?How much do they normally run?--cnm

[Big_J234]

I got a question. What is VPiP any way? :-)

[LockDown]

Voluntarily Put Money into the Pot pre-flop, basically how many times do you call/raise pre-flop.......

[tekn0wledg]

I have used Poker Tracker for about two years now, but it just doesn't have everything I need. I'm actually working on my own, which is web based, and includes numerous other calculations and statistics not included in Poker Tracker that I feel could be more beneficial to the above average poker player. Don't get me wrong, Poker Tracker is the best thing out there right now, but it's lacking in alot of places.If anyone is interested in beta testing my app, please send me a PM and I'll start compiling a list. I am estimating a late January '05 rollout at this point.

[NYIsles]

This is my own thought w/r/t low limit, but I believe you're better off playing more selectively and raising pre-flop a smaller percentage of time than the "books" will tell you. Primarily because most of the books are written by people who are playing middle to higher limits, where players are capable of folding hands to pre-flop raises.When I was first playing at the 1-2 level, I found I wasn't having a great deal of success, even though pokertracker had me classified as an eagle (tight-aggressive-neutral). My VPIP was around 16%, and my pre-flop raise % was somewhere between 8-10%. What I found was that my pre-flop raises were not driving people out of pots I would prefer to play something other than multiway, and I would get outdrawn very frequently even though I held premium starting hands.I've since started to limp much more pre-flop, to cut down on more of the borderline hands... and to slowplay/checkraise my strong flops SLIGHTLY more than I would in games with better players. The net result is that I'm still classified as an eagle, but my VPIP is closer to 13%, and my pre-flop raise % is between 5-6%. The biggest difference I've noticed is that I'm now winning about 3BB/hour at the lower levels. (I realize it's short term, but these results are based on regular play over the course of several months...)I've noticed the same thing at the low levels in casinos. I just came back from the Borgata, where I played at the 3-6 table all weekend. It was not uncommon for pre-flop betting to be capped with someone holding AJ offsuit. I just layed in the weeds and bet my premium hands aggressively after the flop, since I knew I would have callers. I often didn't play a hand for a couple of hours at a time. But at the end of the weekend, after about 18 hours of play, I left ahead about 50 big bets. (That's net of dealer and waitress tokes...)This has been a recurring theme at the B&Ms, so I don't intend to adjust my game any time soon, until I start moving up to the higher levels...

[Smasharoo]

This is my own thought w/r/t low limit, but I believe you're better off playing more selectively and raising pre-flop a smaller percentage of time than the "books" will tell you. Primarily because most of the books are written by people who are playing middle to higher limits, where players are capable of folding hands to pre-flop raises.I think you couldn't be more wrong. Most LLHE PF raises are made for value, not to cut down the feild. While it's occasionally benefical to some hands to lessen the number of people seeing a flop, it's ussually more benefical to get more money in while you have the best hand. When I was first playing at the 1-2 level, I found I wasn't having a great deal of success, even though pokertracker had me classified as an eagle (tight-aggressive-neutral). My VPIP was around 16%, and my pre-flop raise % was somewhere between 8-10%. What I found was that my pre-flop raises were not driving people out of pots I would prefer to play something other than multiway, and I would get outdrawn very frequently even though I held premium starting hands.I think you're a little confused, frankly. If you raise premium hands and 6 people call you're going to win just as many times as if you limp and 6 people limp. You will, however, WIN MORE MONEY when you raise. The only way you loose money by raising PF with premium starting hands is if you'd loose limping with them. If you're playing in a game where people will cold call PF raises with hands worse than yours it's pretty much statistically impossible for it to be correct not to raise.I've since started to limp much more pre-flop, to cut down on more of the borderline hands... and to slowplay/checkraise my strong flops SLIGHTLY more than I would in games with better players. The net result is that I'm still classified as an eagle, but my VPIP is closer to 13%, and my pre-flop raise % is between 5-6%. The biggest difference I've noticed is that I'm now winning about 3BB/hour at the lower levels. (I realize it's short term, but these results are based on regular play over the course of several months...)You're losing money by not raising. I've noticed the same thing at the low levels in casinos. I just came back from the Borgata, where I played at the 3-6 table all weekend. It was not uncommon for pre-flop betting to be capped with someone holding AJ offsuit. I just layed in the weeds and bet my premium hands aggressively after the flop, since I knew I would have callers. I often didn't play a hand for a couple of hours at a time. But at the end of the weekend, after about 18 hours of play, I left ahead about 50 big bets. (That's net of dealer and waitress tokes...)How would you have made less money by raising those same hands PF in a game where people will see a capped flop with AJ?This has been a recurring theme at the B&Ms, so I don't intend to adjust my game any time soon, until I start moving up to the higher levels...If you don't, you're going to have an inevitable criplling downswing which won't have been offset by you raising for value PF and you won't understand why. Raising PF with good hands is one of the main benefits of playing in loose LL games. You get insanely good odds on your money when people call your raise with AQ with 89o (or better yet, AJ). Giving up that opportunity is leaving money on the table, not to mention giving marginal hands implied odds to draw out against you. It's really an amazingly unsound and bad idea all around.

[rkard]

Sometimes when I'm not hitting the cards and stop forgetting my abilities, I open PT up look at my stats and realize that I'm crushing 'em.Gotta be able to gloat n brag to urself as well as realize ur leaks :twisted:

[jack24bauer24]

Where does one get a poker tracker and how much does it cost?

[NYIsles]

Wow, Smasharoo, that's pretty harsh. I didn't say that I wasn't betting my premium hands for value in loose games, I'm just more selective about the hands that I'll play and how I'll play them. It's pretty obvious that you should be re-raising with your KK and AA in a loose game, but you might consider playing JJ and KQ suited a bit differently pre-flop when you're at a table with a bunch of relative maniacs.What part of that is amazingly unsound?

[NYIsles]

I think you're a little confused, frankly. If you raise premium hands and 6 people call you're going to win just as many times as if you limp and 6 people limp. You will, however, WIN MORE MONEY when you raise. You'll also lose more $$$ when you're outdrawn. How often will you play AQ from early position, for instance, if a good percentage of the time you'll end up having to put in 4 bets with it to see a flop? You'll notice that I said nothing about other players LIMPING. You'll also note that I didn't say I limp with everything, Ive just cut down on some of the hands I raise with and some of the hands I play.Man, you're on some kind of a trip...

[NYIsles]

lol... I just had to look up what Sklansky would say about this. I referenced "Theory of Poker", Chapter 25, how to play against certain kinds of mistakes. His advice for playing against players who are too loose in the early rounds and then too aggressive later on? "Play solid cards, but play them meekly".I'd give you his e-mail address if you want to argue with him, but I unfortunately don't know it...

[The Sheriff JBJ]

I use VC Poker while playing on-line. I use this site exclusively as its easier to keep tark of my ups and downs so to speak. It has a stats facility built it.When entering a MTT I re-set it an record by stats v my ranking to see if there is a pattern to how I play when I get to the fianl table or don't as the case may be.But saying this IMO it is a more useful tool while on-line as when playing live a massive tell could just blow you out of the water whatever your cards are.It may sound daft, but even when playing on-line I try to be concious of my body language as its difficult to readjust when playing live games. Especially as I tend to play more on line than I would like to.

[TexasCoffee]

Thanks for your post NY. Interesting and insightful. My game revolves around looking for bluffers and callers... Usually, at low limit tables you find callers. Limping on the flp and check raising on the turn when you connect takes maximum profit from callers. You will often drag somebody with bottom pair all the way to the river through the check raise.If you show strength preflp you fix their flaw. They feel better about dropping with no flp connect and get aggressive when they hit bottom two pair or a set (and maximize profit against you if you're an "abc" player).Anyway, thanks for the post. I hope my cents were legible (no coffee in me yet!)Merry Christmas all!Mike

[Smasharoo]

lol... I just had to look up what Sklansky would say about this. I referenced "Theory of Poker", Chapter 25, how to play against certain kinds of mistakes. His advice for playing against players who are too loose in the early rounds and then too aggressive later on?"Play solid cards, but play them meekly".I'd give you his e-mail address if you want to argue with him, but I unfortunately don't know it...Yes, he wasn't talking about wht you're talking about. He was talking about playing against loose players who play very well postflop. You're talking about playing BAD players.You misunderstood him. That is your fault, not his. He's quite clear. He's also quite clear in Small Stakes Holdem that the very reason the book was written was that people like you were misapplying his advice to LL games. Allow me to quote him: " Mason and I do know how to explain how and why we win. That includes games with loose players that we sometimes encountered in the bigger games. There is a whole section on the subject in out book Holdem Poker for Advanced Players. But "loose" is diffrent from just plain "bad." Games with most of your opponents playing badly used to be almost unheard of...and we rarely adressed them. In fact, we made it a point NOT to do so. ...TECHNIQUES THAT EXTRACT THE GREATEST PROFIT IN SMALL GAMES WON'T WORK IN BIGGER GAMES, THE CONVERSE IS EVEN MORE TRUEDavid's email adress is DavidSklansky@twoplustwo.com, by the way. He'd tell you the same thing I'm telling you if you emailed him and he responded.So you see, you actually looked up what Sklansky had to say about something else, didn't understand it and just confused yourself more. I looked up what he had to say about the subject at hand, and unsurprisingly it was the opposite of your oppinion.Go buy SSHE immediately and apologise to me later.

[Smasharoo]

TexasCoffee said:

Thanks for your post NY.  Interesting and insightful.  My game revolves around looking for bluffers and callers...  Usually, at low limit tables you find callers.  Limping on the flp and check raising on the turn when you connect takes maximum profit from callers.  You will often drag somebody with bottom pair all the way to the river through the check raise.If you show strength preflp you fix their flaw.  They feel better about dropping with no flp connect and get aggressive when they hit bottom two pair or a set (and maximize profit against you if you're an "abc" player).Anyway, thanks for the post.  I hope my cents were legible (no coffee in me yet!)Merry Christmas all!Mike

I just can't describe how much your giving up by limping in with big hands. It's simply amazing that you'd think it could be correct.

[TexasCoffee]

Wow! If its in a book it must be true!!Man, before you go and insult people and quote your "poker bible" - get some felt experience. The books are theory... experience is $.You sound like a smart guy, no offense intended.

[Smasharoo]

You sound like a smart guy, no offense intended.Hey, none taken. Just healthy spirited debate.Wow! If its in a book it must be true!!Naturally not, but let's consider a moment. Which is more likely to be correct, the advice given in a book written by three people who've been playing poker for a combined 60 years or more, one of whom has a Masters in Mathmatics and one of whom attended MIT who have a vested intrest in the readers of their books making money at poker which will lead to them selling more books....OrYour personal opinion based on a small sample set of hands where you're almost certainly not winning as much as you could be.Man, before you go and insult people and quote your "poker bible" - get some felt experience. The books are theory... experience is $.Looking at my book and my online record keeping program I'm up $83,937.24 since January '03 playing live and online at limits not higher than $3/$6 ecept on very rare occasions over probably a couple of hundred thousand hands.Does that qualify?

[NYIsles]

Thanks, Texas. It works for me, anyway.As an aside, Smasharoo, I still play a tight aggressive game, I just play fewer speculative hands - and I still raise premium hands pre-flop, I'm just doing so 5-6% of the time vs. 10% of the time. I really think your posts are a little over the top, sprited debate notwithstanding...