14 replies to this topic

[Acesgotcracked]

Stakes:1-2 NLChip count: Me, BB, $345 Player one, early position, close to $500 One other player in middle position, with about $180The action went as followed, Player one limped in and it was folded to the middle position player who made it twelve to go. It got folded to me in the BB and I made the call with pocket 7's, as did the early position limper. So at this point theres close to $40 dollars in the pot. The flop comes down Q-J-7 rainbow. Being first to act I checked, I was 99.9% sure I had the best hand and so if my opponents came out betting strong I was prepared to move in on them or re-raise big right there. Since it is relatively rare to flop a set, I didn't want to bet out from an early position, and have my opponents who have hit nothing on the flop fold and make very little money off the hand. Also, when I check I am prepared to lay down my set if the turn/river put a scary board out there, simply put, the reason I checked is because I flopped a big hand, and I want to potentially play a large pot with someone. Player one checks behind me and the middle position player fires out $25, I put him on somehting like A-Q or K-Q seeing as he was the original raiser. I cold called hopeing to repersent a draw along the lines of K-10(thats not how I would play K-10 if I actually had it but many people in this game ould instantly put me on a striahgt draw, player one also called.Now the pot has about $115 dollars in it and the turn card is about to make things very interesting. A jack comes off on the turn makeing a board of Q-J-7-J. I notice the early position player seemed please by the jack, I feel at this point the trap is set for him so I check and he bets out $50, the middle position player cold calls and I push forward $200 dollars raising him $150, he pauses for a second and announces hes all-in, the middle position player folds and I quickly call off my remaining 100 or so. Now the pot has somewhere around 900 in it and my opponent shows me K-J very proudly and I flip over my full boat and brace for the river. Unfortunatley he hits his 7 outer when the K of diamonds shows up on the river, I was of course pissed and took a few minute brake before re-buying. Just curious what you guys think, How would you have played it, playing it more aggressive on the flop might have one me the pot right then and there, but I want my opponent to be in there and make trip jacks on the turn, and i'm prepared to lay it down if there turn/river is'nt so friendly. I love the situation going into the river. We had $900 dollars in the middle of the table and I was a huge favorite, who could ask for anything more.Thanks in advance for your responses.

[Footballguru]

Acesgotcracked said:

We had $900 dollars in the middle of the table and I was a huge favorite, who could ask for anything more.Thanks in advance for your responses.

bad post, this is all you can ask for in poker. dont complain about the marginal bad beat please.

[Swift_Psycho]

Flop call was bad. Checking initally was fine, but you should have raised right there a strong amount after someone bet because you have a very vulnerable hand. Your reasoning for making the flat call on the flop about being able to get away from the hand later makes it sound like you actually are hoping to fold later on. Raise strong on the flop and take it down, or make other people pay a considerable amount to continue. Your hand is a good one, but it isn't strong enough to slowplay in this manner.

[Acesgotcracked]

i'm not compalinaing, I was merely asking what you guys think. I understand the thinking in the raise on the flop, and I have played it that way many times before when flopping middle or bottom set. Part of the reason I did not this time was because the players I was playing against would have absolutely no chance of getting away from two pair or trips and I would likely get all there chips if a good card came off on the turn. I was willing to risk having to fold when the board got scary and lose my $35 dollars or so because the potential for doubleing or tripling up was very real.

[Acesgotcracked]

I dont see how you construe me saying i'm willing to fold later on as me wanting to fold later on. People always rip people for smooth calling raises with big hands or slow playing a relatively strong hand when they are confident its the best hand, but as long as you have the confidence in your ability to read and you have the self discipline to lay it down when the board gets scary or when you think someone else makes there hand its an acceptable approach to flopping a relatively strong hand(Not the nuts, but bottom set for instance. If your in the big blind and the gun raises pre flop and it gets folded around to you, I personally have no problem with a smooth call as long as you have the confidence in your self to make a good read and make overall good decisions on the flop/turn/and river.

[Swift_Psycho]

Acesgotcracked said:

I dont see how you construe me saying i'm willing to fold later on as me wanting to fold later on. People always rip people for smooth calling raises with big hands or slow playing a relatively strong hand when they are confident its the best hand, but as long as you have the confidence in your ability to read and you have the self discipline to lay it down when the board gets scary or when you think someone else makes there hand its an acceptable approach to flopping a relatively strong hand(Not the nuts, but bottom set for instance. If your in the big blind and the gun raises pre flop and it gets folded around to you, I personally have no problem with a smooth call as long as you have the confidence in your self to make a good read and make overall good decisions on the flop/turn/and river.

No one is "ripping" on anybody. But against 2 opponents, the smooth call on the flop is just a bad play. You really don't have that big a hand and you are begging to be outdrawn. Besides, your question is "curious how you would have played." You don't have to get defensive because someone thinks you played it wrong. Otherwise, you probably shouldn't post.

[Emptyeye]

Honestly, you should have bet out or check-raised on the flop, and not just for the reasons you think--your hand is good but vulnerable, and so on.Thanks to the exploding popularity of poker, people are so obsessed with emulating their favorite poker pros and trying to make fancy plays that I almost guarantee the guy with the jack would have called you had you bet out or check/raised. Why? Because almost no one actually makes the straightforward play of, you know, BETTING OUT when they think they have the best hand anymore. They're not going to put you on a set, they're going to think you're bluffing at it, and they're going to call you.Seriously. It's gotten bad enough that one of the Live at the Bike commentators is genuinely shocked when someone actually hits a set and leads out with it. In short, fastplaying is the new slowplaying. Take advantage of it.

[Acesgotcracked]

I understand that my hand was vulnerable, and that by not making a raise I was asking to be outdrawn. The reason that I choose to try and trap with this hand was that I felt my opponents in this case would pay me off to the tune of all my chips if they hit two pair or trips(as was the case this time). If the flop had given a possible flush along with the straight draw I would have been more aggressive, makeing people pay to try and hit there draw. Also, if the players I was playing against were ones whom I greatly respected and whom I thought capable of making a laydown I would not have tried and trapped with this hand, because even if they hit two pair or trips they would have been capable of sniffing out the full house or set when I pushed in a huge raise. That was not the case with these players(the dude in middle position almost commited all his chips with A-Q with a pair of jacks on boards and a $200 bet behind him.IF the flop was Kh-Qh-7s, I would have made atleast a pot sized bet to knock people off the obvious draws and try to make someone with A-K re-raise big hopeing to get action.I'm not trying to be defensive. I'm was merely discussing the hand and the reasoning one might have in smooth calling with a hand of relative strenght.

[Swift_Psycho]

Also, if the players I was playing against were ones whom I greatly respected and whom I thought capable of making a laydown I would not have tried and trapped with this hand, because even if they hit two pair or trips they would have been capable of sniffing out the full house or set when I pushed in a huge raise. That was not the case with these players(the dude in middle position almost commited all his chips with A-Q with a pair of jacks on boards and a $200 bet behind him. This comment has really hurt any argument for slow-playing. If they are that bad, there is no reason at all to flat call on the flop. They won't need two pair or trips to keep playing. Don't try to outwit opponents that won't think at a high level anyway. We can debate this all day, but you won't ever be able to make slow-playing look like a superior play to raising strong on the flop in this given scenario.

[Acesgotcracked]

When I say I dont think hes a quality player, that doesen't mean he necessarily plays any two cards or will call your pre-flop raise with 10-4 suited, in this case it simply means that I do not beleive these players are strong enough to fold a relatively strong hand even when faced with action that would make it clear to a stronger player that two or trips are no good. If I had made it 75 to go on the flop calling with bottom pair would just run against common sense, even an average player can lay this type of hand down in this situation, a strong player would be able to(in the case of the hand were speaking of), be able to fold if a King hit on the turn(giving them kings and jacks), on a board of K-Q-J-7, when faced with a large raise from a player whom they respected.

[Acesgotcracked]

What I was trying to say in my above posts is that many even average players can fold bottom a middle pair to a single raise because common sense would tell you that its not good in most cases. But the vast majority of players, even many solid to strong players can simply not lay down hands even when they know there beat. I saw a guy last week call off 500dollars with K-K and he ran into A-A. That might just sound like badluck, this is how the action went.UTG: K-K, raises to $30, folded to SB who makes it 75 with A-A. UTG makes it 200 and the SB moves in for a mountain of chips. At this point the UTG player looks distressed and pushes all his chips in reluctantly and says I know you have aces but I just can't fold this. This guy is a very strong player who does well in many clubs around my town but like many people he just cannot get himself off a big hand even when all the information tells him hes beat.Thats what I was banking on in the hand this thread started with. That one of my opponents would make trips or two pair and due to there inability to lay down a strong hand be forced to pay me off to the tune of all or most of my chips. If I come out fireing on the flop, I would have gotten a call from the guy with A-Q but when that jack hits that will probably scare him off, as it did when the betting got a bit bigger. Yeah unfortunatley the guy went runner runner boat on me and I lost a big pot, but by allowing him to see the turn he made a pretty strong hand which he was willing to put all his chips in on even though he had only 7 outs with one card to come, I will take that gamble any day of the week.

[Swift_Psycho]

Acesgotcracked said:

What I was trying to say in my above posts is that many even average players can fold bottom a middle pair to a single raise because common sense would tell you that its not good in most cases. But the vast majority of players, even many solid to strong players can simply not lay down hands even when they know there beat. I saw a guy last week call off 500dollars with K-K and he ran into A-A.  That might just sound like badluck, this is how the action went.UTG: K-K, raises to $30, folded to SB who makes it 75 with A-A. UTG makes it 200 and the SB moves in for a mountain of chips. At this point the UTG player looks distressed and pushes all his chips in reluctantly and says I know you have aces but I just can't fold this. This guy is a very strong player who does well in many clubs around my town but like many people he just cannot get himself off a big hand even when all the information tells him hes beat.Thats what I was banking on in the hand this thread started with. That one of my opponents would make trips or two pair and due to there inability to lay down a strong hand be forced to pay me off to the tune of all or most of my chips. If I come out fireing on the flop, I would have gotten a call from the guy with A-Q but when that jack hits that will probably scare him off, as it did when the betting got a bit bigger. Yeah unfortunatley the guy went runner runner boat on me and I lost a big pot, but by allowing him to see the turn he made a pretty strong hand which he was willing to put all his chips in on even though he had only 7 outs with one card to come, I will take that gamble any day of the week.

That's fine. But I wouldn't post hands on here anymore. You clearly don't need any advice or help, so why bother? We're just holding you back with our poor knowledge of the game. Why in the world would you post a hand, ask our opinion, and then fight like crazy to justify playing it the way you did? You obviously aren't open to changing your game based on the advice given to you, so go ahead and play the game the way you want to. What the heck do we know?

[Acesgotcracked]

Your completely misconstrueing my statements. I understand your thinking in betting out on the flop, make it much less likely for you to get drawn out on. I was simply stateing that in certain situations it is advantageous to let your opponent try to make the second best hand, as long as your willing to lay it down if you get run down. When I first started playing I would always bet huge whenever I flopped a big hand because I was uncomfortable playing my hands on future streets and had no confidence in my ability to make solid reads and use good judgement, thats changed and so has my game accordingly. I use to always re-raise pre-flop with aces or kings and put someone to a decision for all there chips because I was scared to have to play the aces on the flop when the board came J-J-7, or something scary like that. Oftentimes now if i'm in the BB and theres an early position raise and it gets folded around to me i'll smooth call with A-A if I can put my opponent on a hand like A-Q or K-Q, hopeing he'll hit high pair on the flop and pay my aces off. I think this desire to ALWAYS(much of the time it is the correct play) protect strong hands(that can be drawn out on), is either a sign that the player has no confidence in his ability to make good reads or he does not have the discipline to lay the hand down on the turn or river if he beleives he has been run down.

[Swift_Psycho]

Acesgotcracked said:

Your completely misconstrueing my statements. I understand your thinking in betting out on the flop, make it much less likely for you to get drawn out on. I was simply stateing that in certain situations it is advantageous to let your opponent try to make the second best hand, as long as your willing to lay it down if you get run down. When I first started playing I would always bet huge whenever I flopped a big hand because I was uncomfortable playing my hands on future streets and had no confidence in my ability to make solid reads and use good judgement, thats changed and so has my game accordingly. I use to always re-raise pre-flop with aces or kings and put someone to a decision for all there chips because I was scared to have to play the aces on the flop when the board came J-J-7, or something scary like that. Oftentimes now if i'm in the BB and theres an early position raise and it gets folded around to me i'll smooth call with A-A if I can put my opponent on a hand like A-Q or K-Q, hopeing he'll hit high pair on the flop and pay my aces off. I think this desire to ALWAYS(much of the time it is the correct play) protect strong hands(that can be drawn out on), is either a sign that the player has no confidence in his ability to make good reads or he does not have the discipline to lay the hand down on the turn or river if he beleives he has been run down.

I wasn't the one who said bet out on the flop, I preferred the check-raise. And it wasn't out of fear of playing on the flop (or turn), it was out of awareness that flat-calling is a play begging for an outdraw. So anyway, you question is "Would I have played it differently?" My answer is yes. The biggest reason is because of having 2 opponents, not one. That is the deciding factor and the difference that makes flat-calling the flop more foolish than cagey.