11 replies to this topic

[pokerfan1080]

I see this more and more. Some of the more successful players tend to get all their chips in the middle with pocket pairs or bigger holdings like AK, AQ, etc, preflop. There are times that it's "required", but at a final table sitting in good shape seems like too much of a gamble.

Do we really need to get our chips in when we are at best in a race situation? 70/30, even 60/40, isn't too bad, but the smaller pocket pairs sometimes leaves us not much better than 50%. Maybe it's just the extremely high volume they play that can compensate for this strategy.

I tend to play my pocket pairs rather than push them. Is that too weak?

[mk]

in the later stages of online mtts, finding spots where you can create fold equity is a hugely important skill, due to the large size of blinds and antes relative to stack sizes. you're probably seeing a lot of re-steals happening, e.g. someone raises from lp, and one of the blinds moves in with a small-medium pp or AQ/AJ because the player in the blind knows that the other player could be raising a huge range of hands in position and will need a big hand to call off a ton of chips, and even if the player in the blind gets called, he has a hand that is probably not in terrible shape. etc.

[caribstv]

I see this more and more. Some of the more successful players tend to get all their chips in the middle with pocket pairs or bigger holdings like AK, AQ, etc, preflop. There are times that it's "required", but at a final table sitting in good shape seems like too much of a gamble.

Do we really need to get our chips in when we are at best in a race situation? 70/30, even 60/40, isn't too bad, but the smaller pocket pairs sometimes leaves us not much better than 50%. Maybe it's just the extremely high volume they play that can compensate for this strategy.

I tend to play my pocket pairs rather than push them. Is that too weak?

Well.. medium pairs are tuff to play post flop at times... and there's equity In pushing Preflop with AJ or better... there aren;t many hands to call with. I assume you're conservative player?? In my case.. from middle position on I push with a much wider range of hands... especailly against conservative -tight player.... very few hands you will call with... even against AQ, 95 suited still will out draw it alot of times...

[pokerfan1080]

I assume you're conservative player??

Yeah, guilty as charged, hence my "Is that too weak?" question.

I tend to play fairly tight, and not stand up to late position raises when I'm in the blinds. I really need to identify some better strategies that will give me an edge to go deeper in MTT's. I haven't played an overly large number of MTT's, probably less than 500. I don't usually have a problem making the money, but I've only made one final table.

Oddly enough, the one final table I did make I went into the tournament with an aggressive strategy. I pushed AA, KK, QQ whether raised in front of me or not. I even pushed with OESD and flush draws. I took 3rd, but to do so I had to suck out 3 times: QQ>AA, JJ>KK and hit an OESD after my push on the flop.

That tournament seemed to indicatet the strategy could be effective, but my conservative style doesn't tend to allow me to accept these edges.

[caribstv]

Yeah, guilty as charged, hence my "Is that too weak?" question.

I tend to play fairly tight, and not stand up to late position raises when I'm in the blinds. I really need to identify some better strategies that will give me an edge to go deeper in MTT's. I haven't played an overly large number of MTT's, probably less than 500. I don't usually have a problem making the money, but I've only made one final table.

Oddly enough, the one final table I did make I went into the tournament with an aggressive strategy. I pushed AA, KK, QQ whether raised in front of me or not. I even pushed with OESD and flush draws. I took 3rd, but to do so I had to suck out 3 times: QQ>AA, JJ>KK and hit an OESD after my push on the flop.

That tournament seemed to indicatet the strategy could be effective, but my conservative style doesn't tend to allow me to accept these edges.

i would suggest buying this book to start.

Harrington on Hold 'em Expert Strategy for No Limit Tournaments, Vol. 2: Endgame

[pokerfan1080]

Yeah, I have all three volumes of HoH. They are great. Probably a good time to go back and re-read volume 2.

I have a decent understanding of "M", and somewhat ok with the zone strategies, but a refresher is probably in order.

[caribstv]

Yeah, I have all three volumes of HoH. They are great. Probably a good time to go back and re-read volume 2.

I have a decent understanding of "M", and somewhat ok with the zone strategies, but a refresher is probably in order.

Yeah.. i like always going over book two...and three..

but I play alot more loose... what i like about dan is how he teaches the thinking patern when dealing with a situation.
few things in his books I think about and come up with different line of play at times..


when thinking of making a line of play always think about " what IF" if i'm UTG with a pair of 9's . what would i do if someone comes over the top?? or if i have a deep stack and raise 4-5 times the BB and someone in late position just flat calls you.. what would u make of that??? what kind of hands would call u in this spot?? well depends on his stack size as well.....

i recommend picking this up...

http://www.twoplustwo.com/covers/188068537X.jpeg

[tskillz187]

I see this more and more. Some of the more successful players tend to get all their chips in the middle with pocket pairs or bigger holdings like AK, AQ, etc, preflop. There are times that it's "required", but at a final table sitting in good shape seems like too much of a gamble.

Do we really need to get our chips in when we are at best in a race situation? 70/30, even 60/40, isn't too bad, but the smaller pocket pairs sometimes leaves us not much better than 50%. Maybe it's just the extremely high volume they play that can compensate for this strategy.

I tend to play my pocket pairs rather than push them. Is that too weak?

I don't see too many very good MTTers making these moves at final tables. I can see it happening earlier, or on the bubble and stuff like that. I push all the time against people that I know are tight and trying to squeak into the money. I just simply will not let them see a flop ever.

If the people you are watching are making these plays at FTs with high M's they probably are making a mistake. Unless they are on resteals, but...hmmm I would say most (but it is arguable) solid MTTers start a FT playing relatively tight and then open up once it gets 6 handed and try to take control of the table from there.

[mk]

I don't see too many very good MTTers making these moves at final tables. I can see it happening earlier, or on the bubble and stuff like that.

watch a 100r final table on stars sometime. players like ocrowe, jcamby, below, annette, etc will raise every pot and mow down the table if people aren't willing to stand up to them. obviously each ft is different and players naturally tighten up starting 9 or 10-handed, but in general, the best players will continue to put pressure on the others, because at a ft, essentially there is a non-stop bubble, with payouts jumping each time someone busts. you don't really see a constant bubble effect in smaller buy-in mtts, but in bigger ones it's more pronounced.

[pokerfan1080]

Yeah.. i like always going over book two...and three..

but I play alot more loose... what i like about dan is how he teaches the thinking patern when dealing with a situation.
few things in his books I think about and come up with different line of play at times..
when thinking of making a line of play always think about " what IF" if i'm UTG with a pair of 9's . what would i do if someone comes over the top?? or if i have a deep stack and raise 4-5 times the BB and someone in late position just flat calls you.. what would u make of that??? what kind of hands would call u in this spot?? well depends on his stack size as well.....

i recommend picking this up...

http://www.twoplustwo.com/covers/188068537X.jpeg

Yeah, I have that one as well, just haven't gotten around to reading it yet. I've got a good collection of poker books (same collection available to alot of people who've managed to find the right website, ).

[SlackerInc]

Yeah, I have that one as well, just haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

That book isn't nearly the page turner the HoH books are, at least for me. It seems to be largely oriented toward very deep stack play, also (except for a couple short--but definitely good--sections on short stack play and on pushing and calling pushes), and I don't do a lot of that.

[tskillz187]

watch a 100r final table on stars sometime. players like ocrowe, jcamby, below, annette, etc will raise every pot and mow down the table if people aren't willing to stand up to them. obviously each ft is different and players naturally tighten up starting 9 or 10-handed, but in general, the best players will continue to put pressure on the others, because at a ft, essentially there is a non-stop bubble, with payouts jumping each time someone busts. you don't really see a constant bubble effect in smaller buy-in mtts, but in bigger ones it's more pronounced.

Honestly I've never watched one of these as I don't play at stars often at all. But, Camby and Below are two of the most aggro players on the internet. I am not familiar with Ocrowe, and Annette's game just keeps getting sicker and sicker. She used to be a super tighty and actually that's how I know her best, but maybe she's super aggro at those times.

I understand that every payout is a jump, but in these tourneys big payouts are in the top 3 and I still think the tight then open up strat at Final tables is the way to go.