kkcountry 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 these are from different sessions today, so the players aren't the samedid i get max value out of this hand? i feel as if i did. what would you have done differently?PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: kkcountry is SB with 9 , 8 . UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, kkcountry completes, BB checks.Flop: (4 SB) A , T , 3 (4 players)kkcountry bets, BB calls, UTG calls, Button calls.Turn: (4 BB) Q (4 players)kkcountry checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Button raises, kkcountry 3-bets, BB folds, UTG folds, Button calls.River: (11 BB) A (2 players)kkcountry bets, Button calls.Final Pot: 13 BBwhat was worse, the call preflop, on the flop, on the turn, or the fold on the river?reads: bb played AA super cautious on relatively dry boards twice in 15 hands so far at the table, button was 36.5/17/2.3PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: kkcountry is BB with K , 8 . 3 folds, Button raises, SB calls, kkcountry calls.Flop: (6 SB) 6 , K , A (3 players)SB checks, kkcountry checks, Button bets, SB calls, kkcountry calls.Turn: (4.50 BB) A (3 players)SB bets, kkcountry calls, Button calls.River: (7.50 BB) 7 (3 players)SB bets, kkcountry folds, Button calls.Final Pot: 9.50 BB Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 Not sure what I think about Hand 1 yet. It's not the line I'd take, but it's certainly reasonable. Can't really see any criticism here.As for hand 2, the preflop and flop calls are completely standard. I'd never fold in either one of those situations. You need to make a decision on the turn though. Either "yes, there's a decent chance I'm ahead and I'm going to showdown" or "no, it's very unlikely that I'm ahead and I'm folding". Calling with the intention of folding to a river bet is not a very good line here.Actually, let me amend that. You need to call this down. You have no reason to think you're behind here, and SB's just as likely to have a king as he is to have an ace. You're probably ahead about 25% of the time on the river, and you only need to be ahead 10% of the time to call. Even with the turn bet included, you have more than the right odds to call. SB would have to be something like a 17/7/0.4 to make this a fold on the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 i really like hand 1they call ur flop bet so at least one of them has an ace. The turn card may have made someone a straight, so I love love love this line.hand 2 is really dependent but as for me, I'm likely to fold that on the flop a majority of the time + the betting out of the fd with the cr on the turn? Hard to put you on the flush. nh sir Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I think you need to put in a raise somewhere in the 2nd hand.I usually raise the flop, but when the SB wakes up on the turn, I prefer it there.NOW, I know what you are thinking. And yes, this IS read dependent.A ton of people will donk cards like this thinking it's a scare card, but really, it isn't. It makes it less likely someone has us beat, really. Link to post Share on other sites
CoranMoran 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Contrary to popular opinion so far, I don't like Hand 1 at all. really like hand 1they call ur flop bet so at least one of them has an ace. The turn card may have made someone a straight, so I love love love this line.Yes, at least one of them very likely has the Ace.But this is the reason for us to bet- not check!Let's say Button holds the Ace, and let's look at it from his point of view.He holds Top Pair.He only limped in, so his kicker probably isn't that good.He only called the flop, so he probably isn't too confident that his hand is best.But it is certainly worth calling the flop bet and playing on.The turn is a very scary card for him.Straight and Flushes may have hit.Unless he has a monster here (Flush or Straight), it will be difficult for him to bet into 3 opponents.He very possibly checks down that turn with an Ace hoping to get to showdown cheaply.And allowing this to get checked through is horrible for us.Even if Button does decide to bet the turn if it gets checked to him, then what do we do?We raise and knock everyone else out.This doesn't give us any more value than leading out in the first place.The only time when checking seems best is if we are very confident an early position player will bet.But once again, with such a scary board, I don't see people betting very often.They will likely want to get to showdown cheap without a monster and only call down.Point: I bet out here. And expect to possibly get called down by everyone since they all probably have some piece.And then I bet the river and get calls there as well.When I know that I have the best hand and will likely get a lot of value from a bet, I hate risking it all by slowplaying.--CM Link to post Share on other sites
CoranMoran 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Hand 2:Oh no.You can't fold the river.I don't understand why you did?Why call the turn if you are folding the river? You need to make a decision on the turn though. Either "yes, there's a decent chance I'm ahead and I'm going to showdown" or "no, it's very unlikely that I'm ahead and I'm folding"This is how I feel.You're either going to showdown or you are folding the turn.There is no middle ground (unless something crazy happens!).SB likely has a K.You may still be ahead.Call down.I usually raise the flop, but when the SB wakes up on the turn, I prefer it there.Why are we raising either street?I don't see much value in raising.Hoping sb is on a Flush Draw?I don't think thinning the field will do us much good here.If we are ahead, we will likely stay ahead.If we are behind, we will likely stay behind.--CM Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Agreed with everything you wrote CM.I'm really never a fan of giving away the lead, once I have it, AND have made my hand.I bet and hope to get raised. Link to post Share on other sites
CoranMoran 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I bet and hope to get raised. I don't think people consider this idea enough.They view their options as:1) Lead out and collect 1 bet from callers.2) Risk a Check-raise and have a chance to collect 2 bets.But option 1 allows you to collect 3 bets when someone hits their Straight or gets overaggerssive with something less.There's nothing sweeter to me than being straightforward and gaining maximum value.--cm Link to post Share on other sites
kkcountry 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 i still like my line on hand one, as i came out betting on the flop (representing anything but a flush draw) and then an A+ scare card (flushes and straights) on the turn hits, and i slow down, screaming 'my weak ace is no good with 3 people behind me, someone please take this pot away from me' i doubt a board like this ever gets checked through. i mean, i'd never check here with 1 villian, but at least one (out of the 3) had to have liked the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Why are we raising either street?I don't see much value in raising.Hoping sb is on a Flush Draw?I don't think thinning the field will do us much good here.If we are ahead, we will likely stay ahead.If we are behind, we will likely stay behind.--CMOh, btw. I like raising the turn as played, because it gives us a chance to fold a better K that the Button may hold. Link to post Share on other sites
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