Kks

[ramenandeggs 0]

Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: $50/$1009 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP3 with Kh KdUTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $300, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.Flop: ($1050, 3 players) 10s 4s 5hUTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $100, Hero raises to $700, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.Turn: ($2450, 2 players) 8cMP1 checks, Hero bets $2000, MP1 calls.River: ($6450, 2 players) AsMP1 checks, Hero checks.Results:Final pot: $6450Mp1 is table leader with about 16k. I have about 9k. I didn't get too many hands at this table when this went down so I don't have any good reads except a general LAG here since he has a lot of chips to bully with. Would this kind of player/stack size check in front with a flush? Without really knowing villian's style, I didn't want to get check-raised by a rivered flush. Should I have bet anyway? To test villian? To get the best out of my hand? What did you guys think of the rest of this hand?

[rogerwilco 0]

Mp1 is table leader with about 16k. I have about 9k.

The other stack sizes are relevant too.

I didn't get too many hands at this table when this went down so I don't have any good reads except a general LAG here since he has a lot of chips to bully with. Would this kind of player/stack size check in front with a flush?

Possible, you have been aggressive on every street so far, I guess he has good reason to assume you'll bet again. I like the check, the As is a real scare card - for Villain too if he doesn't have the flush/an ace. I think the chance, that you lose a lot on the river is much higher than that you get more value out of you KK when you bet.

What did you guys think of the rest of this hand?

Raise more preflop, other than that I think you played it fine.

[krup24 0]

Raise more preflop, other than that I think you played it fine.

Yeah I agree, 2 limpers and the blinds I probably make it $450 to $500 pf.

[copernicus 0]

You cant even think about betting this river. Youve got 2d pair and there are flush and straight draws out there, besides the A. There is no (sane) hand that you beat that can call a "value bet"

[rog 0]

Raise more preflop. Easy river check.Am I the only one who thinks the flop bet is too small? It's basically a half-pot raise on a draw heavy board. I'd make it more like 900. Bu that's just me.

[copernicus 0]

Raise more preflop. Easy river check.Am I the only one who thinks the flop bet is too small? It's basically a half-pot raise on a draw heavy board. I'd make it more like 900. Bu that's just me.

I agree raise more preflop, meant to mention that in my original answer.I don't like a bigger bet on the flop though, especially after too small a preflop raise. The problem is he could have a very big draw which will call just about anything or you could even be behind to a set or two pair. Either way you want to keep the pot small, but price out a one card draw, which 1/2 pot barely does. Youre going to have to bet most turns, and you dont want to have to invest too much to price out the draw again.

[rusmac31 0]

agree, raise to $500 pre-flop.I think the flop bet should be closer to $1,000 and then the turn bet is 2/3 pot or approx. $2,000. Totally agree with others, checking the river is solid. Even if you lose you still have 30x bb left, no reason to bet to get check raised

[copernicus 0]

agree, raise to $500 pre-flop.I think the flop bet should be closer to $1,000 and then the turn bet is 2/3 pot or approx. $2,000. Totally agree with others, checking the river is solid. Even if you lose you still have 30x bb left, no reason to bet to get check raised

What does 1000 get you the 700 didnt? Either way he doesnt have one card drawing odds, but does have two card drawing odds if he thinks he gets to see a free turn card. Youve cost yourself an extra 5.5% of your chips through the turn (assuming your 2/3 pot bet on the turn) and I dont see any gain.

[ramenandeggs 0]

I was one of the bigger stacks at the table also. Average was maybe 5k, with two other big stacks. I doubt that anyone at this table was paying attention but my line on the preflop raise is I'm getting used to sticking to the same size preflop raise, so I don't develop a pattern with how much I'm raising a certain range of hands with. I don't like changing it to 5xbb because I may be committing a lot of chips with hands that are really flop-dependent like big slick or suited connectors. Is this still a viable strategy in these donkaments where there just may be one player every once in a while paying attention? (that would be the player that i'm assuming will get deep with me and i'll see him again later in more important hands of the tourney)

[copernicus 0]

I was one of the bigger stacks at the table also. Average was maybe 5k, with two other big stacks. I doubt that anyone at this table was paying attention but my line on the preflop raise is I'm getting used to sticking to the same size preflop raise, so I don't develop a pattern with how much I'm raising a certain range of hands with. I don't like changing it to 5xbb because I may be committing a lot of chips with hands that are really flop-dependent like big slick or suited connectors. Is this still a viable strategy in these donkaments where there just may be one player every once in a while paying attention? (that would be the player that i'm assuming will get deep with me and i'll see him again later in more important hands of the tourney)

5x bb raises may be viable in the first level or two when you both need bigger bets to make a winning hand more meaningful later in the tourney, and you have more donks willing to play weakish hands against a raise. I think 5x bb raises are much too big later than that. Thanks to throwemaway Ive been playing 2.5x bb in later rounds, even when there are antes, and they seem to be as effective as larger raises.

[ChrisRichey 1]

If I am the first person in the pot in either MP or LP, I raise 4x BB in the first two levels, and 3x BB from then on. If I am in EP, I usually raise 5x BB in the first two and 4x BB from after that.

[copernicus 0]

If I am the first person in the pot in either MP or LP, I raise 4x BB in the first two levels, and 3x BB from then on. If I am in EP, I usually raise 5x BB in the first two and 4x BB from after that.

Note that many pros suggest the opposite line..they raise less in EP because they get more respect and are easier to get away from with so many players behind you. Thatincludes Phil Gordon, who's pretty much TAG and Erick Lindgren who's LAG.

[ChrisRichey 1]

Note that many pros suggest the opposite line..they raise less in EP because they get more respect and are easier to get away from with so many players behind you. Thatincludes Phil Gordon, who's pretty much TAG and Erick Lindgren who's LAG.

I think in the lower limit mtts/sngs, which was what I was refering to, people don't respect pos at all. I have found that raising a little more definitely decreases the number of people that go to the flop.

[copernicus 0]

I think in the lower limit mtts/sngs, which was what I was refering to, people don't respect pos at all. I have found that raising a little more definitely decreases the number of people that go to the flop.

Even then, you should still respect your own position. Even against donks, playing out of position is much harder, so unless the raise is likely to get it folded around (which isnt a great result with a good hand to start with), youve invested a lot of chips in a hand where you're out of position 70%+ of the time. Something like 70% of the hands that go to the flop are won by the hand with position, including multi-way pots. So, unless youve got a monster, you're likely to lose more than 1/2 the hands that you play from EP (some youre going to fold to a reraise). That still screams "small bet" to me. The best hands to play OOP (other than monsters) are "flop it or fold" hands, meaning small-mid pairs and suited connectors, again hands that call for small bets to maximize implied odds.On the other hand, if they dont respect your position, they dont respect their own position either. That leaves plenty of opportunity for large raises/re-raises with position and with somewhat weaker hands, because you know they are going to have a hard time playing them.Save your big raises for hands in position against weaker players.