18 replies to this topic

[keith crime]

He was sick tonight he'd be trapped or be trying to pick the ball off the floor and he'd not only get it to someone but they'd have an open layup or dunk when they got it

[Jadaki]

His numbers are better than the last two years... another MVP maybe?

[king1305]

His numbers are better than the last two years... another MVP maybe?

I don't think he gets it no matter what, I just cannot see them awarding a three-time MVP to Steve Nash.

[UncleCollins]

I think Nash definitely has a legitimate shot of winning the MVP again this year.

[fleung22]

I don't think he gets it no matter what, I just cannot see them awarding a three-time MVP to Steve Nash.

it's THAT much harder to argue that he isn't mvp this season. better debate the last two years.

[princeof56k]

IMO, Nash is having his best season. He will be in comeptition for this years MVP. Its just too hard to leave him off. But I do think the voters will start thinking about what it means to make him a 3-time consecutive MVP. I imagine he will lose a few votes because of that if the other candidates continue to play at a high level.

[CaneBrain]

IMO, Nash is having his best season. He will be in comeptition for this years MVP. Its just too hard to leave him off. But I do think the voters will start thinking about what it means to make him a 3-time consecutive MVP. I imagine he will lose a few votes because of that if the other candidates continue to play at a high level.

kinda like when MJ didnt win it for a few years because the voters were just dying to give it to someone else. I think Nash still has a good chance....but you cant discount Dirk, Wade or Lebron either....or Gilbert Arenas I guess (happy gilbertology?!??!).

Personally and biasedly, I think its Wade hands down. When he is out the Heat look like an expansion team....when he is in they win 3 in a row on the road out West. That is my definition of valuable.

[princeof56k]

kinda like when MJ didnt win it for a few years because the voters were just dying to give it to someone else.

Thats not actually what I meant. I mean the voters will start to think what it means historically.

Only 7 players have won 3 or more MVPs: Russell, Wilt, Kereem, Moses Malone, Bird, Magic, and Jordan
Of that group, only Bird, Russell, and Wilt have won 3 consecutive.

Some voters, probably not many, will start to wonder if Nash belongs in either group, and I think they will find that there's NO WAY he he belongs there. Of course this shouldve happened last year but didnt. However, winning 3 in a row is a BIG deal. I think the voters will take a closer look here.

If the season continues to play out as it has so far, my pick for MVP would be Nowitzki.

BTW, off topic but I think Jordan won about as many MVPs as he should have. Maybe one more, but thats about it.

[SuitedAces21]

Personally and biasedly, I think its Wade hands down. When he is out the Heat look like an expansion team....when he is in they win 3 in a row on the road out West. That is my definition of valuable.

You do realize the Heat have a losing record, right???

How can you say Wade deserves the MVP when his team has a losing record, in the east. Its either Nash, Dirk, or Kobe right now.

[Jadaki]

Thats not actually what I meant. I mean the voters will start to think what it means historically.

Only 7 players have won 3 or more MVPs: Russell, Wilt, Kereem, Moses Malone, Bird, Magic, and Jordan
Of that group, only Bird, Russell, and Wilt have won 3 consecutive.

Some voters, probably not many, will start to wonder if Nash belongs in either group, and I think they will find that there's NO WAY he he belongs there. Of course this shouldve happened last year but didnt. However, winning 3 in a row is a BIG deal. I think the voters will take a closer look here.

When it's all said and done, Nash is going to go down as one of the best pure point guards ever. He is a more athletic version of John Stockton.

[princeof56k]

When it's all said and done, Nash is going to go down as one of the best pure point guards ever. He is a more athletic version of John Stockton.

Well a lot of that will depend on what he does is the future.

First, Stockton was one hell of an athlete. To say Nash is more athletic is just not true.

One of the best pure point guards ever? That depends on how long your list is. Nash doesnt make my top 5. My top 4 is in order: Stockton, Magic, Big O, Cousy. Thats the top group, and I dont see Nash passing any of those guys. Then there's about about 3 or 4 guys I could put in the 5th slot, but its very debatable. Based on current body of work, Nash doesnt make my top 5. That could change depending on what he does in the future and really how many more years he plays. My prediction though is that he wont make up the gap, but thats just a guess.

[Jadaki]

Well a lot of that will depend on what he does is the future.

First, Stockton was one hell of an athlete. To say Nash is more athletic is just not true.

One of the best pure point guards ever? That depends on how long your list is. Nash doesnt make my top 5. My top 4 is in order: Stockton, Magic, Big O, Cousy. Thats the top group, and I dont see Nash passing any of those guys. Then there's about about 3 or 4 guys I could put in the 5th slot, but its very debatable. Based on current body of work, Nash doesnt make my top 5. That could change depending on what he does in the future and really how many more years he plays. My prediction though is that he wont make up the gap, but thats just a guess.

See I look at it differently. Magic and Oscar Robertson don't make my top "pure" PG lists because they each almost created new positions. Magic could play all 5 positions and at 6'9 was probably the first of the point forwards that are becoming common place now. Sure he was listed at PG but he was in a forwards body. Oscar Robertson doesn't scream top PG to me either, more like one of the most dominate combo guard ever.

Stockton and Cousy both were more pass first, run the offense type players and are in my top 5. I watched Stockton play for years, and I give him credit for doing a lot of things that your average star player would shy away from, the guy had a ton of heart to get in the lane and mix it up setting screens on anyone and tossing around a few pointy elbows. Watching Nash play though, he seems in tune with the flow of the game where Stockton was really good at running the system they played in Utah.

[CaneBrain]

You do realize the Heat have a losing record, right???

How can you say Wade deserves the MVP when his team has a losing record, in the east. Its either Nash, Dirk, or Kobe right now.

because when he is out they lose every game and when he is in they are a +.500 team. Because Nash, Dirk and Kobe are actually getting some help from the supporting cast (other than Jason Kapono of all people who has been great the last 8-10 games). Because he is the man.

[princeof56k]

See I look at it differently. Magic and Oscar Robertson don't make my top "pure" PG lists because they each almost created new positions. Magic could play all 5 positions and at 6'9 was probably the first of the point forwards that are becoming common place now. Sure he was listed at PG but he was in a forwards body. Oscar Robertson doesn't scream top PG to me either, more like one of the most dominate combo guard ever.

Stockton and Cousy both were more pass first, run the offense type players and are in my top 5. I watched Stockton play for years, and I give him credit for doing a lot of things that your average star player would shy away from, the guy had a ton of heart to get in the lane and mix it up setting screens on anyone and tossing around a few pointy elbows. Watching Nash play though, he seems in tune with the flow of the game where Stockton was really good at running the system they played in Utah.

Most of the great point gaurds were good in many areas of the game. Nash however, is very one dimensional. And I dont like limiting the criteria to play to his strengths while ignoring his weaknesses. That may let guys like Mark Jackson and Mugsy Bogues slide into a discussion they dont belong in. IMO if you have to create certain criteria for Nash to make the cut, then he really isnt that great.

Even if you look at just passers and guy who "run the offense," I dont think its changes the list that much, and its unfair to leave Magic and Robinson off the list. Their numbers show what kind of distibutors they were. There is no doubt they ran the offense. To leave them out because they were big and good in other areas of the game seems unfair. Cousy was a great scorer in his day. Why include him? You also have to take into consideration that assists were scored more conservatively in Robinson and Cousy's day.

About Stockton, I think he is better than Nash in every area of the game. He could run the break just as good as Nash and was better in running the half court offense. Stocktons gift was that he made it look so easy. He made it look routine and ordinary. Trust me, what he was doing out there was not easy. His assist numbers are insane.

Here's a list of my top point guards (Kind of in order)
Stockton
Magic
Big O
Cousy
Kidd
Payton
Thomas
Tiny
Frazier
Nash
Lenny Wilkins
Kevin Johnson

[Jadaki]

IMO if you have to create certain criteria for Nash to make the cut, then he really isnt that great.

Just my definition of the position, when I think pure PG I think pass first shoot second. A lot of PG's don't play that way (Iverson, Marbury etc...). I just look at players like Magic and Oscar as the start of the a new type of player in the league. Sure they racked up assists but they did a lot of other things too that were unusual for the position. They were more like extremely versatile small forwards than PG's.

About Stockton, I think he is better than Nash in every area of the game. He could run the break just as good as Nash and was better in running the half court offense. Stocktons gift was that he made it look so easy. He made it look routine and ordinary. Trust me, what he was doing out there was not easy. His assist numbers are insane.

I give Stockton the edge in half court, but I think Nash is better on the break. Not only that but Nash has proven himself in different offensive systems where Stockton played for one team and for the majority of his career one coach. If Nash has a glaring weakness it's that he isn't a lockdown defender, but he makes up for it by giving everyone he steps on the court with a boost to their career. How many star players have been coming out of Phoenix that you had never heard of before since Nash got there? He is turning guys that can't crack the starting lineup on other rosters into potential allstars.

[CaneBrain]

Most of the great point gaurds were good in many areas of the game. Nash however, is very one dimensional. And I dont like limiting the criteria to play to his strengths while ignoring his weaknesses. That may let guys like Mark Jackson and Mugsy Bogues slide into a discussion they dont belong in. IMO if you have to create certain criteria for Nash to make the cut, then he really isnt that great.

Even if you look at just passers and guy who "run the offense," I dont think its changes the list that much, and its unfair to leave Magic and Robinson off the list. Their numbers show what kind of distibutors they were. There is no doubt they ran the offense. To leave them out because they were big and good in other areas of the game seems unfair. Cousy was a great scorer in his day. Why include him? You also have to take into consideration that assists were scored more conservatively in Robinson and Cousy's day.

About Stockton, I think he is better than Nash in every area of the game. He could run the break just as good as Nash and was better in running the half court offense. Stocktons gift was that he made it look so easy. He made it look routine and ordinary. Trust me, what he was doing out there was not easy. His assist numbers are insane.

Here's a list of my top point guards (Kind of in order)
Stockton
Magic
Big O
Cousy
Kidd
Payton
Thomas
Tiny
Frazier
Nash
Lenny Wilkins
Kevin Johnson

I like that someone points out Nash has some serious limitations as an all around player. You cant be the best point guard if you cant guard anybody. As good as Stockton was, I cant put him ahead of Magic Johnson. No matter what your rationale is, no way. Just no way. I am not even sure I like putting him ahead of Isiah Thomas and I certainly wouldnt put him ahead of the Big O (unless you dont really count Oscar as a true PG which is a fair point).

[Jadaki]

Everyone knows Nash is a bit weak on the defensive end, but he does manage a few steals a game so he is not totally inept.

[princeof56k]

With regards to my list. How you arrange the top 4 is really subjective. Cousy and Robinson played in a totally different era and there's limited info. Assist were not granted as easily, and other stats like steals were not kept. In addition there were no defensive player awards, so I have no real data with which to gauge there defensive capabilities. Magic had his career cut short which isnt his fault but still matters.

I dont think its unreasonable to put Stockton in the top spot though. He is the leader in all-time total assists and he actually holds the record for APG in a season. He made the All-Defensive 2nd team 5 times. He also gets longevity points for performing at such a high level for 19 seasons, and he still had some left in the tank when he left. I understand the argument for Magic, Robinson, or Cousy getting the top spot, but I dont see anyone else cracking my top 4.

The reason I'm not sure if Nash will really move up is because I'm not sure if he has enough time left to make the numbers. He's been a "great" offensive point guard for only the last 3 seasons (counting this one). In the 4 seasons before that he was just good. And in his first 4 seasons he was average or below. He's gonna be 33 soon and most players tail off around 35 or so. I just dont think he has enough time.

As for Nash on defense, I actually do think he's totally inept down there. (You could actually argue he's just plain absent). He steal numbers are very poor for a guard. He's never averaged more than 1.0 SPG in a season and averages only 0.8 SPG for his career. At the guard position, he can get that by just being on the floor. Payton, Frazier, and Kidd are excellent defenders. Stockton was very good. Magic was a poor defender, and Nash supporters often cite this fact. But Magic still managed to lead the league in steals twice so he wasnt totally absent.

[Jadaki]

The reason I'm not sure if Nash will really move up is because I'm not sure if he has enough time left to make the numbers. He's been a "great" offensive point guard for only the last 3 seasons (counting this one). In the 4 seasons before that he was just good. And in his first 4 seasons he was average or below. He's gonna be 33 soon and most players tail off around 35 or so. I just dont think he has enough time.

The time thing may be a problem, but I don't think he slows down for another couple of years.