96 replies to this topic

[TheDonk1989]

I voted to check. A check here would be best. Check-calling would be very effective in this situation. You want to keep the pot small so you check, if the grinder bets at you call. This protects your hand and if he's making a play its giving you chips. Even if your behind, your losing minimum.Whenever I'm in a tough spot where I think I might be ahead I use this:"When in doubt, check-call."It gives your opponent a chance to bet at you and when your not in the lead you lose minimum or you could get lucky on the river.

[IDontDoLogic]

If you again bet 33% he probably got you all figured out. So that's what I'd do. If he re-raises, I'd fold.

[ddudley]

I was thinking check-raise. I don't think he has anything (80%) or he's slow playing a very strong hand (20%). Let him bluff off more chips then end the hand.

[prasad581]

i like check in ver muchAll-in: Risking the first or second chip lead with 5 left on a top pair mid kicker. This is extreme over-betting and you can get the same information from the 30% or 50% bets.

[RGDeClue]

All in looses two ways. #1 Grinder flopped a monster and you are bye bye.#2 Grinder has mediocre hand like K X or the mid pair mentioned and you loose some cash because he folds. Check looses as in #2 above, but then opens the door for a Grinder bluff which many seem to worry about. Even if Grinder checks, are you now going to bet on the river after showing weakness? Raise 30%: It is OK as it could be read as a "please call me now that I know you are willing to throw in chips" and could be read as I just turned 2 pair or better. It also shows you still want money in the pot. It could be read as a weak bet inviting a reraise from the Grinder. I only do not like it because it gives 4 to 1 odds and I get no info if called wether the grinder is on a draw with a weak K or slow playing a monster.I like Raise 50%: This discourages a reraise as a bluff since it is a stronger bet. It still offers 3 to 1 for a weak draw or even if the grinder slow played a big pair like QQ, JJ. Showing you are willing to throw money in the pot will also invite him to reraise if he has you beat. Except for the now unlikely bluff, the Grinder will tell you exactly what he has by his bet.Fold = You got me beat.Call = I want to look you up as I am not convinced. (Or slow playing monster)Raise = Got you. You can react accordingly.

[delved]

My reasoning is this;There is no way he has a pocket pair. He would've reraised against you or mucked a lower pair. The only card he could've hit is the K. The Grinder more than likely would've bet the hand he had on the flop. However, the board isn't scary in any way. Plus, if he does have AK/KQ he's likely calling us down. The best ploy is to check because I'm thinking he's playing a weak ace or cards you wouldn't play in your every day nine handed table.

[Datiger]

The Grinder plays pretty tight meaning I don't think my hand is completely that great but it is heads up and top pair heads up can be pretty good.I would check call the turn. knowing the board is all rainbow I'm not too scared of letting him see the river. Then block bet the river, but checking the turn might make him think that I'm weak and bluffing and I can't do that with a weak hand like that. But were both chip leaders and I don't think he would reraise me there unless he was really strong. Even if he did smell weakness I think he would probably still fold. Keyword "The Grinder"Or 1/3 bet turn, 1/3 bet river and hope he's calling with pocket pair.Does anyone if Daniel gives any thoughts on his questions?Thanks

[cnc41729]

[I PICKED THE WRONG ONE I'D SAY CHECK CALLIN WOULD BE WHAT YOU WOULD NEED 2 DO CHECK CALL C HECK CALL RISK AS MANY CHIPS AS POSSIBLE I MEAN KING JACK SHOULD HEVER RAISE PREFLOP BUT 5 HANDED YOU PRETTY MUCH GOT 2 I WOULD OF CHECK CALL CHECK CALL BEEN THE BEST PLAY MOST PPL RAISE PREFLOP AN C BET WITH ANYTHANG THEN SOME ONE IN POSIOSN WILL CALL THAT THEN WHEN YOU CHECK FIRE A GOOD SIZE BET BUT YOUR IN A BAD SPOT NO WAY 2 KNO WHAT HE HAS WITH OUT RISKING ALOT OF CHIPS AN IF THERE IS KMORE THEN 5 PPL LEFT YOU SHOLDN'T BE RASIGN WITH THAT GARBAGE ANYWAYS

[30odd6]

im taking the lead cuz im out of position and acted first to start with. put the pressure on the button cuz i dont think he really wants to tangle with the other chip leader. theres no sense for him to get into a pissing contest. he would have to believe i have AK cuz im not going to risk my chips either. lets stop fighting amongst ourselves and take out the small stacks to get heads up with each other. and for that matter, he would now come over the top with a set and i found out what i needed to know. job well done....next hand please dealer LOL

[cashman]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 12:11 PM, said:

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

I would bet 1/3 of the pot. While we are probably ahead, no need in tangling w/the other big stack at the table. Who wants to go broke w/a pair of kings and a decent kicker. Based on his position I would say that he is simply sticking around for the ride but why get the pot bigger than it needs to be. If you have just led out on consecutive streets he probably knows that we have something. If we bet bigger on the turn he might be more inclined to come over the top w/a steal attempt and then what? How many of us have busted out of tournaments when we first started out by not letting go of top pair. While I don't get intimidated easily, I also don't like to go broke making hero calls. I would try to keep it small and let my top pair take down a moderate pot.

[cashman]

cheetaking, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 3:21 PM, said:

Oh... okay. I didn't get that part.I still say check, though. He's a fellow small-baller, so we can't be sure enough of what he has in order to risk lots of chips with just a jack kicker on top pair. Once he calls on the flop, I'm probably just hoping to check it down. But since it's Mike, another smallish bet of 1/3 of the pot seems like a good option too, since the flop call could easily just be an information call. But since he has position on us, we've got to be careful.

Completely disagree. While you don't want to go broke here, you can't give the away free cards and get no information when you have top pair w/a decent kicker. 1/3 to 1/2 the pot to let him know I have something. As you say he's a small baller. If he's calling just to see a flop, you need to start applying pressure after the 3 cards hit the board. A lot would depend on his reaction to the post flop bet. If he thinks I am continuation betting and wants to reraise with a steal attempt I may even repop him once. Either way I want him to fold w/my initial bet or reraise me so that I can find out once and for all once if I repop him. As soon as I hit top pair here I want to get this hand over with on the flop (whether that is winning it or losing it). He will be just as scared of my stack as I am of his. I don't think he is going to go broke trying to make a move on the other big stack. If he calls the reraise than he is either very stong or braver than I am and I will let him have it. My goal w/a hand like this is to keep it small and take down smallish pots. However, at a short handed table late in a tournament you don't want to just give away chips by playing scared either. If this guy is any good at all he will detect some weakness when you're "jabbing" at the pot, so you will probably have to make at least one stand to take control of the hand. Ideally I wouln't want to risk more than about 25% of my stack to win this hand. If I could afford to reraise once and stay within that range I would do it.

[BigBallPoker]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 1:11 PM, said:

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

There is a ton of info missing here to make a correct decision. How have I been playing recently? More specifically how have I been playing against The Grinder and how does he view me? What information do I have about The Grinder other than the hands I have seen on TV (which pretty much tell me nothing because they are specific to the situation at the time)? The list of questions goes on. I apologize if these questions have been brought up and answered.In general though I think we are ahead of his range. So the question is whether we can go for 2 or 3 streets of value. If you think only two then checking is best planning to call a bet or value bet the river. If 3 streets than value bet half pot in my opinion.

[mych36]

I would probably check in this situation because even though I have top pair on a rainbow board, what hands would a grinder call me with preflop and on a flop like that? He most likely has me outkicked so I would look to play a smallish pot her by checking and calling then maybe make a defensive bet or check the river

[TheTiburon]

The Grinder plays a similar small ball style. In fact, he has called it "opposite poker". He could call here with bottom pair or even AK. With top pair, suspect kicker a little larger bet will better define if he is "floating" to bluff another street or feeling out if his hand is best considering we might have continuation bet. The only other option I would consider here is "checking" to keep the pot small.

[BigMagic]

I would bet about 33% and find out where I'm at. If he calls I more fearful than if he raises. Grinder is an aggressive player but if he flopped a set he is going to value town on the river. If the river is a blank I would check call again trying to look like I wanted a cheap showdown. Grinder is going to fire with most of his range, we know he doesn't have AA -AK or he would have raised preflop to keep the blinds out. So he could have AT-A2, KQ-K2 Qx or a small pair. If he flopped a set and is slowplaying He is going to try to make a bet you can call since the line you took will make it look like you would fold to a shove. If he has air or an underpair you may induce a bluff on the river which based on the line I suggest I would call. I hope that made sense?

[TBHLT1]

How many years do we have to wait for Daniel to chime in with a response to his own question?Half pot bet works for me. He could be slow playing a monster but I would have expected a reraise preflop. Especially 5 handed. You don't want to see a flop without a little more info from your opponent. If he reraises the half pot raise then I think you have to fold. Depending on how many chips you have left. Stack size would be helpful. The reraise would indicate something like 2 pair. Maybe K4 suited or maybe he was calling with the K and turned 2 pair with the 8. The turn raise will let you know were you stand. If he calls the turn raise the you check the river and hope for the best.You could really speculate all day. I would love to hear Daniel's thoughts.Newbie mistake. Just noticed the answer. My bad.

[ezelisko]

I would stare him down until his head exploded.But seriously, check would probably be the most adaquate play here. You don't have much information on him except that he has shown interest in the hand. Get a feel for what he is doing. I don't play that high stakes, so I don't really know. If any bet, I would keep it a consistent percentage of the pot, basically mocking the percentage of the last bet.