Quiz Question #25 Options

[farmist]

Just push in 33% and if he calls you push on the river. If he raises all in, probably have to fold there

[Valincius]

50% of the pot, the reasoning is in the way the grinder plays. If he has chips he likes to make alot of semibluffs and plays at pots for small amounts to keep he LAG image, but by betting 50% of the pot with the blind levels as high as they are at final tables you take that play away, where as I think he will be tempted to raise 1/3 of the pot. Also a check here is a very dangerous move as he he will likely make a play at this pot, almost regardless of what we have. What it does do is keep the pot small which is what you want to do with top pair and decent kicker, but still no way is it better than finding out where we are at. Also the all in bet is dumb, instead of finding out where we are in the hand with say 50% of the pot we now have most of our chips on the line, that just dumb.

[Seany Gee]

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you.

The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

after much debate and concern about making a fool of myself i have decided to have a stab at a reponse

the fact that the grinder is on the button, opens up his range of starting hands a little, with the blinds still to act after him (preflop) he would be likely to re-raise with a big hand like AK or AA

i could see him just calling with KQ, 44, 45 sooted, or even 42 sooted. (by the way isnt his favourite hand 44??) these hands are all relevant to the flop, but a pocket pair ranging from 77 to JJ is also a strong possibilty.

i think with position he would raise on the flop with AK KQ or a pocket pair from 77 to JJ and even 45 sooted if he felt you didnt have a K

he could be flat calling for 2 reasons,

1. he may have missed the flop all together and has called to see if by calling he can slow you down on the turn and if you check try and take it away with a bet on the turn

2. he also could be calling with a monster like 3 of a kind 4's and looking to raise you on the turn

either way you must bet the turn in my opinion but perhaps just 33% of the pot as not to commit to many more chips with a marginal hand, this will make him think twice if his original intention was to bluff, but if he comes over the top i think i would fold and look for a better spot

being out of position in this case is a major problem

[mtdesmoines]

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you.
The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

What's my range been? How much $ do I have in relation to the pot? How much did I raise PF? Was it enough to kick out 22 and 44? I'm likewise guessing it was enough to kick out anything that hits two pair on this flop.

Grinder probably doesn't have a PP -- he surely would have tested us..The only hand that makes sense for the Grinder to have:
• 56
• KQ/KJ/KT

I'm not sure I want to get married to KK jack kicker for my WPT life. But we are short-handed, with (I assume) blind increases coming.

If I have enough chips, I define the hand now, at the turn: I overbet the pot to let him know I have a K. If he calls, I'm in trouble if a danger card peels. OR just trouble period, right now. Also, if he calls, I try to control the action and damage on the river (almost impossible).

In the future, I try to remember that KJ is a trouble hand.

[WMiracles]

Trying to think of the possible hands we could put him on here, I'd say it's fair to say that the grinder probably wouldn't just call from the button with K4, K2, or K8. Since from the button he would also probably re-raise with AK to weed out the SB and BB, we can eliminate AK as well. AA and KK are possibilities since he could have been trapping, and there was nothing too scary on the flop to halt that strategy. 88 isn't much of a possibility either, since it's probable that he would have played that on the flop. 44 or 22 are the other hands he could have since they would not have been bad calls on a LP raiser.

Either way, his smooth calling pre-flop and on the flop are warning signs that something is fishy here. He either hit trips or has rolled Aces over our Kings. Betting here will surely result in a re-raise from The Grinder and the only way to win the hand at this point would be to re-raise and hope he's stealing with rags, which of course is unlikely. Furthermore, since we raised pre-flop and the flop doesn't even have a flush draw on it, it's safe to say that The Grinder realizes we are betting Kings.

Easy check/fold here.

I agree -- something is fishy here. Either he's trapping or he's reacting to having been pushed around in the past. Given his position, trapping is the stronger possibility, but there are other clues. Some important questions -- 1. he's the grinder, who does he think you are? and 2. what's the chip situation relative to the blinds? If his chips are low then your play is check/fold -- he's not likely to risk the tournament trying to catch a bluff. If he thinks that you're solid and your chips are good, then it's a trap and again, Check/fold is right; if he thinks you're been aggressive and your chips are low, then check and if he raises put him on all in. If you've been aggressive and chips are high, then you're on a guess as to what's going on.

[MR_BIZKITZ]

I check here but I dunno what the right move is.

[DrZoidberg]

I check, keep the pot small, and call down any bets.

[JD1908]

I check and see what he does. He will probably bet, and it will leave control of the pot really up to me. I can call and see the river with not being comitted yet having top pair, raise to put him to the test, or fold if I really think he has me beat, which I doubt. Probably end up check raising the turn and check the river to him to see where he's doing. Of course I'm no DN and probably don't have the right answer... which would be interesting

[Sheiky]

I would bet 50% of the pot.

A very likely situation is that the button thinks Daniel has made a continuation bet on the flop after his pre-flop aggression and has bluff-called him with the hope that he'll be able to take it away on the turn.

The unthreateing board imo would make the button think that Daniel is bluffing because he think Daniel thinks he could have missed and will fold.

As there are no draws, and the turn doesn't help, i would bet again.

[Spicy]

Checking is definitely out of the question....lets not bet the flop and check the turn now....

The idea here is to make your opponenet PAY and PAY HARD to see the river....you need to fight hard to win a pot like this and the only way to do it is with a sizeable bet....

But what about going all in? OOPS....that would be a mistake....too easy to get trapped here with a Jack for a kicker....your opponent could have KQ or the big slick....

You need to figure out just how strong his hand is by pressing 50% of the pot....if you get raised then you are probably in a bit of trouble here....if you get called then the odds are you have the better hand

[bannedit]

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you.

The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

The flop call leads me to believe we could be behind in the hand. The first step would be to decide on a possible range of hands. Possible hands: AK, KQ, 44, 22, 35, these are the hands I feel are most likely to lead to a flop call. The majority of these possibilities have us beat. The 8 on the turn doesn't help my hand. I think a check on the turn is a good idea. If he bets we can safely fold with a minimal loss and if he checks we get to see the river. Checking here allows us to avoid a big pot late in the tournament. Even if we are ahead here the situation is unclear and we are out of position.

[sm9145]

i think it is a good spot for a check call. you are either way ahead or way behind int this spot and given the few times i have seen the grinder on tv at wpt final tables he is always looking to steal pots. i think check call turn and check call river is the best play here to get the most value out of your hand he fires multi barrel bluffs alot and if we bet he cant call he can push and that makes for a tough decision. i really like check calling here.

[Mercury69]

I shove and take it down on the turn. Grinder is not someone I was to tangle with post flop.

Re: Grinder's flop call, I think he has a piece and called because his odds were too good, but I still think we're ahead. It's higly unlikely he's playing with a better K than ours.

[LinksOcarina]

I don't know much about the Grinder, but whenever I do see him on TV in some form, he is usually hyper-aggressive. With that in mind, he could be on some type of draw, but at the same time he could of also missed it. You have the lead, so I would check to minimize losses. If he bets, you can check-raise him, because you likely have him on a semi-bluff.

So check it to see what he does. If he checks, you have him, if he bets, he is protecting his hand. You get more information by checking it seems then by calling.

[Bad Muscle]

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[pokerguru00000]

Looking at this one I think a large bet is the right move. Sitting on top pair and against another big chip stack you have to make the point that you won't be pushed off a pot.

[mslele40]

I say go all in, when you originally bet the 33% of the pot he probably already quessed that when you made the bet, but if thinks that you have a lower kicker than he does then when you go all in with the 8 he probably will think that you then have two pair.. although this is very dangerous because he could have king eight he could also have pocket aces or pocket kings for that matter, but if 33% of the pot is also more then 30% percent of your stack, then you almost have to go all in
or check fold and surrender the pot if raises after you check. Another mind blowing decision.

[matusalem]

I would bet size of the pot instead, to make him pay if he has a worse K, or fold if he has something else. I dont want him to hit a second pair on the river, or an ace if he has got an ace. It also works with a half pot bet, perhaps the only difference is that he is folding more to a pot sized than to a half sized pot. So, in the case he calls, and we have him beat, we are getting more chips from him if he has a lower K, and he is folding anyway if he doesnt. On the river Im playing strong if a rag comes again.

[nas061000]

Since you've lead out the betting twice now(PF and Flop) he hasn't had a chance to value bet and you haven't had a chance to gauge what he has. I would check and see if/what he bets. His call pre-flop may means he has AX or KX and he may have hit two pair or has the Ace as an over card.

[strappazon]

IN. Just because i want to know the answer. First i thought i'd have bet 50 % of the pot. Now that i've read all the posts i think i'd check. So if i was at the table for real i'd be fu...lol