96 replies to this topic

[dingas]

You guys are all way off..The best play is to open fold. The only hand he can have is the nuts KK. Open folding will let him know that we have a perfect read on his play and give us a huge psychological edge on future hands.

[thapokerdon9]

simo_8ball, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 2:39 PM, said:

Grinder Also known as: Rounder. A grinder is the same as a rounder. These tend to be semi-professional players that make most of their money playing poker, though they do not make much money. A grinder plays in a similar fashion as a rock. Often, these players can beat lower and mid-stakes games but can not beat or make much money at the higher stakes games.

Also, Michael "The Grinder" Mizrachi:I believe Daniel is referring to the latter.

Just so you all know Mizrachi said in an interview I saw that "the grinder" is basically his cash game persona. I dont know if you've ever saw him wearing a shirt or hat that says "Im a Machine" but he says that better describes his tournament style of play. Anyway back to the question I would fire out about half the pot again I think we are ahead in this situation more often than were behind."Hey who's the new kid?"

[JamesBong]

Id bet 1/3...- I dont want him to chase, but its better then trapping myself- He doesnt want to come over the top with a bad bluff, so if he does i think hes got a hand- I get to keep the pressure on and if he has a middle pair hes probably going to foldIm not going to check and leave myself open to the big bluff... if I check hes either coming back witha big raise or checking cuz hes on the draw... i dont want eitherTest the waters with a 1/3 bet, keep the pressure up without risking too muchI think hes got pocket 10s right now.Of course, maybe this is why im still struggling at the nickel tables ....

[LooseCannon]

The Grinder will bet if you check.If he is ahead, checking is better than betting because you will lose less since he can't raise you.If he has nothing, checking is better than betting because you will induce a bluff since the flop is the sort of flop that is good for calling with nothing planning to bluff on a future street against an opponent who makes a lot of continuation bets.If he has a little something, checking is better than betting because he will probably call you but not raise you if you bet (he might even fold a hand like 99) and bet if you check, so you aren't missing a bet.The only time that you might not like checking is if he has a draw like 65. Of course, if you bet, he might semibluff and raise after picking up the double-gutter and potentially put you in a tough spot.

[goferdug]

There is TOO MUCH MISSING information:How much the initital raise was in comparision to stack size (i.e. raise 10k of 2 mil or 20,000);How many chips do you have in comparison to 1/3 of the pot ( pot = 10,000 or 10,000,000 compared to what stack size);How has the Grinder been playing;If we are to assume equal stacks of about 1/10 the pot,MY RED LIGHTS ARE FLASHING!!!!! WHY WOULD HE FLAT CALL A 1/3 POT SIZE BET?????Is he going to try and outplay us or did he flop a MONSTER. THERE S NO DRAW!My instincts would be to now check and see what he does.I wouldnt mind calling with some of my chips, but again not knowing stack sizes, pot sizes, blah blahI DEFINATELY WOULD NOT WANT TO WATCH THE REST OF THE TOURNAMENT FROM THE SIDE LINES CALLING ALL IN WITH TOP PAIR FAIR KICKER

[CiberX]

WRU answer

[blakheart]

Check/call Our hand is vulnerable and we are out of position. Keeping the pot small here is important. If we bet out he may raise us off of our hand, and we don't want that. We may be giving a free card to A4, A3 etc, but it is more important to not get too invested in Top pair ok kicker. If Grinder checks behind, then we just need a blank to fall on the river. Then we can either check to let Grinder bluff, or value bet the river.If Grinder bets and we call, i think anything is an automatic check on the river.BTW on WPT final tables we can assume that neither player is real deep in chips here. The WPT structure is such that they want it to end in a resonable amount of time.

[11 to 1]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 3:11 PM, said:

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

I've read three of these and gotten them all wrong - but, well, Mizrachi right? (Spelled wrong, I imagine.) Shoot, fold should've been an option. He's calling, he must have nine aces. OK, at least pocket fours, when does he ever call? He doesn't reraise before the flop? He doesn't raise a one-third the pot bet? (I am ALWAYS wrong about these things.) But - sawing this limb right off, I'd assume I was beat here. Real beat without the possibility of raising him off the hand. And why am I playing the other chip leader, anyway? I guess I could make a substantial raise and see if he calls and maybe that would help me confirm my suspicions, but why do I want to give more of my chips to the other chip leader? I'm for checking and hoping for a King on the river, I guess. I'd seriously put him, (not some random player but him) on trips or AA.

[butterknife]

Go all in, since the grinder likes to play small ball.

[checkymcfold]

a king often raises the flop, right? i don't know much about how grinder plays, but we showed extreme weakness with a 1/3 pot continuation bet on the flop and if we're not raised i'd imagine that means something like 2nd pair good kicker or a pair that beats 2nd pair, or even just a pp. i really think we're good here most of the time.i checkraise a lot of the time, but i know i use that line too often. the other option in my book is to fire out about 1/2 the pot. all i know about MM is that he likes to put the pressure on against weakness, and that's best manipulated by taking very weak (as in standard for weak hands) lines with strong hands. top pair is strong here in a HU situation, and from the preflop action i would assume the only hand he's got that beats us is KQ, which he'd PROBABLY raise on the flop, but i'm not sure about that. i suppose he could have a set, but the best way to fish that out would be a checkraise too, i think.

[offset]

I prefer check/calling to check raising. We have to assume that Mizrachi is going to slowdown on the river without a monster, but there is a good chance he bets the turn with a weaker hand than ours. We really do not want a big pot oop. I think check raising will unnecessarily bloat the pot to protect against only 2-5 outs.

[iggymcfly]

I'm not going to read all the responses (read the first page or so), but I picked check. The board is about as draw-free as it could be, and there's a great chance that the Grinder's just floating us on the flop. If we check, I think a bet from him to steal is almost mandatory. If he has a pair that's not a king, he'll be worried about letting us chase six outs, and a king will bet for value. I really doubt the turn will go check-check. Having stack sizes here would help a lot however. Also, I would have made a larger C-bet on the flop since we're looking to get some chips in with what is likely the best hand here.

[flintsword]

Well, Daniel got called when he bet at the flop with top pair, and there is no real draw on the flop, so I think you have to give the Grinder credit for some sort of hand. Probably a Kx type of hand where x = T, J, Q, K, or A. With five players, you defend the BB with a longer list of hands, and Kx where x is 7,8,9 is looking good.With AA, AK, KK, QQ I think there would have been more action preflop, especially with five players short-handed, but I suppose at that level any action is possible, even slowplaying a high pair. One thing is that he has 'some sort of a hand'. He could also have some sort of pp and read Daniel for 'no King' since five-handed, you can rasie with a pretty broad range of hands.I though that with AK Mizrachi would have raised the bet on the flop, but as the saying goes, "no need to push the wagon when a donkey is doing the pulling." (I am not calling DN a donkey, that is just the saying) The call on the flop bet is an alarm bell. What Mizrachi is saying is "Daniel, you could be betting with Kx and I am calling you because I either have a better hand, or think I will have one shortly." Mizrachi may also see the bet on the flop as a normal continuation bet by Daniel, and decided to play his 99, TT, JJ or other hand giving him second pair. This is why it is important to fire some sort of a bet at the turn, which puts Mizrachi to the decision in case he does not have anything concrete.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to slow down, because the kicker is just not that great. Another 33% of the pot is an aggressive approach to the pot but something smells here: either outkicked or a set.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to really wonder about how good KJ is in this situation. The fact Mizrachi is just calling seems to imply KQ, but that is just a guess.I voted for a 33% of the pot bet and will be fascinated by the answer when it surfaces.Being totally wrong and learning the correct evaluation is a valuable way to learn, so right or wrong: there you go.

[Nebulosity]

Maybe he is calling to take the pot away later? He is on the button after all. I utilize this every so often, and I have seen the Grinder do it a couple times on WPT season 3 when he went back to back #2 and then winner. I think a 50% bet would effectively kill this plan of his. Since we are both chip leaders, if he re-raises then I muck it. Before that I think we are safe to do a 50% bet.

[checkymcfold]

flintsword, on Friday, January 19th, 2007, 2:44 PM, said:

Well, Daniel got called when he bet at the flop with top pair, and there is no real draw on the flop, so I think you have to give the Grinder credit for some sort of hand. Probably a Kx type of hand where x = T, J, Q, K, or A. With five players, you defend the BB with a longer list of hands, and Kx where x is 7,8,9 is looking good.With AA, AK, KK, QQ I think there would have been more action preflop, especially with five players short-handed, but I suppose at that level any action is possible, even slowplaying a high pair. One thing is that he has 'some sort of a hand'. He could also have some sort of pp and read Daniel for 'no King' since five-handed, you can rasie with a pretty broad range of hands.I though that with AK Mizrachi would have raised the bet on the flop, but as the saying goes, "no need to push the wagon when a donkey is doing the pulling." (I am not calling DN a donkey, that is just the saying) The call on the flop bet is an alarm bell. What Mizrachi is saying is "Daniel, you could be betting with Kx and I am calling you because I either have a better hand, or think I will have one shortly." Mizrachi may also see the bet on the flop as a normal continuation bet by Daniel, and decided to play his 99, TT, JJ or other hand giving him second pair. This is why it is important to fire some sort of a bet at the turn, which puts Mizrachi to the decision in case he does not have anything concrete.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to slow down, because the kicker is just not that great. Another 33% of the pot is an aggressive approach to the pot but something smells here: either outkicked or a set.If the turn bet gets called, it is time to really wonder about how good KJ is in this situation. The fact Mizrachi is just calling seems to imply KQ, but that is just a guess.I voted for a 33% of the pot bet and will be fascinated by the answer when it surfaces.Being totally wrong and learning the correct evaluation is a valuable way to learn, so right or wrong: there you go.

i think grinder is floating the flop for info a LOT more often than he's representing a real hand. we're ahead a lot more often here than we're behind, IMHO. the question becomes how do we get a weaker hand to get the most money in on the turn (and if possible, fish out the few times we are beat relatively cheaply).

[ramenandeggs]

i'd check in front here so i don't make the pot too big.

[vvganeshavv]

I'm betting 1/2 - 3/4 the pot!!

[TareqB]

Before thinking of my options, I'd like to think of what The Grinder actually may have, and only then come up with the best play.First he called a raise pre-flop. What could he have called with? A middle pocket pair, or K-Q, or even A-J or A-10 suited. I don't think he would only call with a high pocket pair, or A-K or even A-Q, he would probably reraise, he doesnt want to play the other chip leader heads up, and might be happy to not lose a lot of chips on this hand, and just force me out.On the flop, he called. I think this eliminates the chances we are against a hand like A-10 or A-J, as he would have probably thrown those away on the flop. Now, what does he think we have? We raised pre-flop, and then raised again on the flop. I think it is obvious that the least we have here is J-J, Q-Q, or a king with a decent kicker. So would he call with a mid pocket pair? definetely not! This leaves us with only 2 possibilities that he may have in his hand. K-Q or he's made a set, and trying to trap us. But he does have us beat right here!The right action here I would say is check/fold.Not because of the analysis I made before, I am not positive about my analysis, and actually I might have him beat, but the analysis makes sense to me, and more importantly, I'm amongst the chipleaders, I dont want to lose many chips and probably the tournament with a marginal hand. So what if he takes it down and I have a better hand!! I think I better save my chips for a later confrontation, when I have the better of it for sure. Don't risk your chips on a marginal situation..

[Pixelation]

I think he called our preflop raise with a pair, namely 44 or 22. I would not entirely rule out KK either.The board is pretty safe for his set, so his smooth call on the flop seems like he's giving you a chance to hit something.On the turn this is a check/fold for me.However, i think it is also a possibility he may have nothing. Even so it is still a check, he probably isn't going to call unless he has you beat.

[julkop01]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 10:11 PM, said:

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

Your opponent made a Bluff-call on the flop just to bluff you on a turn. You should encourage him to do so and bet 33% of the pot so he can re-raise quickly you and then say all in and sit back in your chair. If he thinks about calling, just say to him that he propably has you beat but you had to try That should make his decision making even harder if the 8 helped him (maybe he was in with 78s).