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Quiz Question #25


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Poll: What is the Play? (793 member(s) have cast votes)

What is the best play?

  1. Check (229 votes [28.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.88%

  2. Go All in (70 votes [8.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.83%

  3. Bet 33% of the pot (118 votes [14.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.88%

  4. Bet 50% of the pot (376 votes [47.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.41%

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#21 simo_8ball

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 10:54 AM

View PostAntoni, on Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 6:23 PM, said:

I think it's fairly obvious we are dead in the water here, so why lose any more chips? Live to see another day imo.
Ok, he isn't likely to smooth call both preflop and the flop with a hand like KQ or AK, so I think we can strongly weight against those in his range. His most likely hand is a pocket pair, and the only pairs we are really worried about are 44, 22 and 88.Check/folding is far too weak a line to take in this hand.

#22 revhq2646

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 11:34 AM

View PostAntoni, on Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 10:23 AM, said:

Well, looking at the options again.All-in: Risking the first or second chip lead with 5 left on a top pair mid kicker. This is extreme over-betting and you can get the same information from the 30% or 50% bets.30% Bet: Too small, it's possible but unlikely that he played 35 suited and might call this small bet. 50% Bet: This may be what he was looking for. If he calls or raises we are still stranded in this hand. If he calls the 50% can we honestly bet out on the river again? If he raises it's a simple choice really, so why bet at all?I think it's fairly obvious we are dead in the water here, so why lose any more chips? Live to see another day imo.
You are correct that we are probably beat, and if you are certain you are beat here then you can make the case for check/folding, but I think that is WAY to weak of a table image for a final WPT table. My opion is even if you are 90% certian you are beat you have to bet here and the smallest bet that makes sense is 50% of the pot, as anything less and the 35 draw is correct to call.

#23 scatory2

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 02:38 PM

I would put in a bet for half the pot, if he raises you you can give him credit for a set. Its unlikely that he has AK otherwise he wouldve showed some strength by now. If you check, he'll more then likely bet and you have to fold, of you put in a bet about half the pot he'll fold if he was messing around with 5-3-x

#24 gilbertology

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 03:11 PM

check, then raise his bluff.If he flopped a set, not much you can do. If the stacks aren't overly deep 5 handed this is a hand I'd be fine getting it all in with on the turn. Being an aggresive played he'd likely reraise AK preflop and the chances of him having K7-10 are greater than the single holding of KQ. If he checks behind, possibly bet half the pot on the river unless an ace comes. Checking the river and trying to induce a bluff isn't too bad either if you know the Grinder to be aggressive.
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#25 michael1123

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 09:02 PM

Most obvious check ever in any deep stacked situation, not just at the final table. He'll probably make some kind of bet on the turn with ANY hand he would've called with on the flop, so you'll have to consider calling the turn, depending on stack sizes, how much he bets, and your read on him, and then go from there.And planning to checkraise here is almost as bad as betting. Its a clear check and then either call or fold scenario. There's no reason to try and build an unnecessarily big pot with top pair jack kicker at the final table against the other big stack. Same on the river, unless its a J.

#26 Acid_Knight

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 09:52 PM

I think that this is a difficult situation and the question is made tougher by us not knowing stack sizes or the blinds. The flat call on the flop could be a set, any middle pair, or just The Grinder playing his position.I think that AK is unlikely, as he probably would've raised preflop against DN's raise to ensure that the blinds folded. KQ is a possibility, but I think that KQ would put in a raise on the flop to better define the hand.The 1/3 pot bet on the flop was cheap enough that his range is still rather large.Since we have a fairly strong hand and are really only legitimately worried about a few hands that are currently beating us (KQ, 22, 44, 88) I would advocate checking here. I'd feel even more strongly about this if the stacks are really deep. Since we're not really that worried about giving him a free card, our check conceals the strength of our hand a little bit and gives us a chance to hopefully learn a little more about his. The deep stacks would allow us to check call or even check raise him if it looks like the best play.Another continuation bet here puts us in a very bad position if he raises because we still have to figure out where he's at and we're most likely going to fold.With deep stacks, I think the correct play is to check and see what develops.

#27 CiberX

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 11:08 PM

-Check, you want to keep the pot small with top pair, specially against a large stack that could jeopardize your tournament life, its better wait to play bigger pots against the other smaller stacks on the table to knock them out, You can just call a bet on the turn and probably make a value bet on the river if a blank comes controling the size of the pot.

#28 mk

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 06:41 AM

grinder obv has 42s, his fav hand. k/f

#29 revhq2646

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 07:11 AM

View Postgilbertology, on Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 3:11 PM, said:

check, then raise his bluff.If he flopped a set, not much you can do. If the stacks aren't overly deep 5 handed this is a hand I'd be fine getting it all in with on the turn. Being an aggresive played he'd likely reraise AK preflop and the chances of him having K7-10 are greater than the single holding of KQ. If he checks behind, possibly bet half the pot on the river unless an ace comes. Checking the river and trying to induce a bluff isn't too bad either if you know the Grinder to be aggressive.
This is the worst take I have seen. NL is all about trapping and chopping, check raising in this situation is about digging holes for your opponents and then walking into them. Top pair should be the best hand here, but you need to get away from it if it is not. If he raises what 1/2 the pot or more, you are going to have to come over the top of that. Doubling or trippling the size of the pot and the size of your mistake. If he checks behind me I'm even more worried that he has a set and is hoping I will take a stab at the river.

#30 revhq2646

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 07:24 AM

View PostCiberX, on Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 11:08 PM, said:

-Check, you want to keep the pot small with top pair, specially against a large stack that could jeopardize your tournament life, its better wait to play bigger pots against the other smaller stacks on the table to knock them out, You can just call a bet on the turn and probably make a value bet on the river if a blank comes controling the size of the pot.
This is the first decent reason to check here. For me since I don't get to play many final tables on the WPT it is all about what people do in these situations. It seems that there is alot of naked aggression at the final tables and you really don't want to get in a situation where you are opening the door to let someone take a stab at your pot. I've been at small tournament final tables that would let you get by with checking it down from here, but he could still be on a draw or an underpair. I don't think we want those hands getting a free card. If we bet and get called we have more information than if we check and he raises, so that is still my vote. Bet enough to punish the draw 50% of the pot.

#31 Morpheus

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:33 AM

I would think HIS most likely hands are baby cards: 44, 22, 53, 56 something like that. Bet 50% of the pot on the turn and see what he does....

#32 aasurfer

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 06:57 PM

Daniel i'm not sure who you were saying was "way off" so i guess i'll just be honest and say what i think and hope i don't get made fun of... and if i do hopefully i'll learn something... As a top pro I would assume the Grinder would call a raise from a nobody like me on the button hoping to out play me after the flop with a variety of hands. The flop bet of 1/3rd the pot is in the probe bet range and he could have called planning on stealing the pot if I let up at all or if he made his hand on the turn. While it is possible he concealed a very big hand like AA or AK i believe he would reraise more often than not pre flop.An article I was reading a while back from Erick Lindgren suggested checking the turn in some situations when you are the preflop aggresor in position against an aggresive opponent. In Erick's article he said the value you give up by letting your opponent draw to 5 or less outs is more than compensated for when he thinks your turn check was a sign of weakness and tries to take the pot on the river with a half to pot sized bet.I think this concept can be applied for this hand but with a twist. Instead of checking the turn in position, you're checking out of position... which sucks but bear with me. You know The Grinder is going to bet 50%- the pot when you check to take it from you, which may have been his plan the entire time with no part of the flop... So my play would be to put in a minimum check raise. I believe this is the best play because I'm pretty sure i'm ahead and by checking and inducing his bluff i'm adding huge value to a pot i may have won with a half pot bet on the turn.As my first time at a major final table i would be doing everything in my power to win. Against a top pro like The Grinder i'm going to have to guess sometime to win, and by making this play now I think he'd be a little more wary of entering a pot i raised in the future. Even at the final table the top pros want to play small ball if the blinds allow it and grind you down (no pun intended). By standing up to him on this hand in which i am very likely ahead based on the reasoning of previous posts (AA or AK on the button would usually raise, the only hands to worry about are 22,44,88, or QK) I am sending him a message to focus on the other 4 players and to stay out of my way until we're heads up.Am I on the right track?Phil :club:

#33 Head_Trauma

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 07:28 PM

I got the Grinder pegged for 53... and my killer read says they're both clubs. Anyone disagree? Don't check and give him a free card to his 8 outer. Bet half the pot to make him overpay for his draw. Laugh when he pairs his 3 on the river and agonizes over a call.

#34 Nore

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 04:21 PM

Well, its a very diffuse Q. Firstly I don't know stack size, how much the raise and Bet sizeSo actually you want us to guess.. heheHe has not AK, would have raised with KQ on flop. he may have set or AA, or under pair like 88 or 99.. 1010 maybe. any way, we need info. 50% of the pot if that's not to much of our chip size. I think Daniel has this one under control if he played it real, but i would not have gone all in.. Maybe check if i could put him on KQ..I don't what i would have done live, in this situation, but i _THINK_ i would have bet out. But I'm willing to fold. :club: we are easily beat...

#35 EmOEmU

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 08:41 AM

i think you should check. there was no draw on the flop so k-j is either way in front or way behind. also i think its unlikely a good player like the grinder would call a bet on 3rd, 4th and 5th street with a hand worse than k-j. for that reason i dont think theres any point in betting.if i check he might bet a hand like a smaller pair than the king or ace high thinking its good. i would plan to call on the turn and check on the river. or if he checked on 4th street i would make a small bet on the river.

#36 Head_Trauma

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 02:56 PM

View PostEmOEmU, on Sunday, January 7th, 2007, 8:41 AM, said:

i think you should check. there was no draw on the flop so k-j is either way in front or way behind. also i think its unlikely a good player like the grinder would call a bet on 3rd, 4th and 5th street with a hand worse than k-j. for that reason i dont think theres any point in betting.if i check he might bet a hand like a smaller pair than the king or ace high thinking its good. i would plan to call on the turn and check on the river. or if he checked on 4th street i would make a small bet on the river.
5c3c!!! obv...

#37 Nore

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 04:15 PM

View PostEmOEmU, on Sunday, January 7th, 2007, 8:41 AM, said:

i think you should check. there was no draw on the flop so k-j is either way in front or way behind. also i think its unlikely a good player like the grinder would call a bet on 3rd, 4th and 5th street with a hand worse than k-j. for that reason i dont think theres any point in betting.if i check he might bet a hand like a smaller pair than the king or ace high thinking its good. i would plan to call on the turn and check on the river. or if he checked on 4th street i would make a small bet on the river.
But calling on flop is prob just to see what WE will do on flop, and maybe if he has a "bluff-draw".And ok, you check, he bets you call, on river you check, he goes all in, what then?? can you call?No. When you bet on turn, you get info, Call he has us, raise he really has us, fold we got the pot.. :)Thats how i see it.. :club:

#38 dkelloway

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 05:11 PM

First, i would have bet atleast 1/2 pot on the flop .As played I bet 1/2 of the pot b/c you want to play a medium sized pot with your TPGK, if he raises, i'll probably fold. I like betting here because he could be "floating here" or be bluffing with an unimproved pocket pair like 55 or 66 here.

#39 offset

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 10:26 PM

Check. We are OOP and our hand is only semi-strong. We want to keep the pot small, and a bet will only fold worse hands.

#40 bonuskiller

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 10:00 AM

Check to him and let him push . Then insta call




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