96 replies to this topic

[DanielNegreanu]

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

[bdc30]

Bet 50% of the pot. Insta-call when he donk-pushes.He thinks we were stealing and calls our raise pf with just about anything.He caught a little piece, and thinks a raise here will blow us out of the hand.

[simo_8ball]

Knowing stack sizes would help. I think the best play changes depending on how deep we are.He is unlikely to be on a draw, so this is a situation where we are WA/WB. His has given us very little information thus far, but we are likely to be ahead. He could easily have called the flop with air . If we are shallow stacked, a c/r or c/c allin would be a good play. Deeper stacks and I generally prefer betting 33% of the pot again.

[cheetaking]

I say check. The opponent is a grinder, and showed interest by calling, so he's probably calling another bet on the turn and we don't really know if we're ahead or not. I say check. If he fires back, drop it, if he checks behind you then he was probably calling with a mid-pair, and you can check/call the river. If he makes a bet on the turn, I think you can honestly be worried enough about K/Q and A/K to fold since he's the grinder. Betting the turn will only win the pot if he had a mid pair, which you would win anyway by backing off, and then you're wasting another big bet if he does indeed have you out-kicked. I say check.

[_Great_Dane_]

bdc30, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 3:23 PM, said:

Bet 50% of the pot. Insta-call when he donk-pushes.

If he pushes, he'll have us beat. No need to go broke from being a chip leader holding just top pair.

[simo_8ball]

cheetaking, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 10:08 PM, said:

The opponent is a grinder

Grinder Also known as: Rounder. A grinder is the same as a rounder. These tend to be semi-professional players that make most of their money playing poker, though they do not make much money. A grinder plays in a similar fashion as a rock. Often, these players can beat lower and mid-stakes games but can not beat or make much money at the higher stakes games.

Also, Michael "The Grinder" Mizrachi:I believe Daniel is referring to the latter.

[_Great_Dane_]

simo_8ball, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 5:39 PM, said:

Grinder Also known as: Rounder. A grinder is the same as a rounder. These tend to be semi-professional players that make most of their money playing poker, though they do not make much money. A grinder plays in a similar fashion as a rock. Often, these players can beat lower and mid-stakes games but can not beat or make much money at the higher stakes games.

Also, Michael "The Grinder" Mizrachi:I believe Daniel is referring to the latter.

Daniel said, "The Grinder." I'm sure that he was referring to M. Mizrachi.

[simo_8ball]

_Great_Dane_, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 10:48 PM, said:

Daniel said, "The Grinder." I'm sure that he was referring to M. Mizrachi.

Yeah. He is. I was just highlighting how cheetaking's confusion arose.

[cheetaking]

Oh... okay. I didn't get that part.I still say check, though. He's a fellow small-baller, so we can't be sure enough of what he has in order to risk lots of chips with just a jack kicker on top pair. Once he calls on the flop, I'm probably just hoping to check it down. But since it's Mike, another smallish bet of 1/3 of the pot seems like a good option too, since the flop call could easily just be an information call. But since he has position on us, we've got to be careful.

[nutzbuster]

Call me Nutz but I shove here. It's the Grinder and I believe he will come over the top at any bet or sign of weakness. If you check he will most surely bet and you'll be more lost than ever in the hand. Doubt he has K-Q, and if he has A-K he most likely would have re-raised pre. He's got big pair? or A-Q? maybe 4-5 ? How many hands can beat me here and what are the chances he has one of them and is he playing like he has one of them? I don't think so.If he's huge then so be it...and G G me, but it looks like he's fishing/testing. I'd push and take a shot at ending this hand right here.

[_Great_Dane_]

nutzbuster, on Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 1:31 AM, said:

Call me Nutz but I shove here. It's the Grinder and I believe he will come over the top at any bet or sign of weakness. If you check he will most surely bet and you'll be more lost than ever in the hand. Doubt he has K-Q, and if he has A-K he most likely would have re-raised pre. He's got big pair? or A-Q? maybe 4-5 ? How many hands can beat me here and what are the chances he has one of them and is he playing like he has one of them? I don't think so.If he's huge then so be it...and G G me, but it looks like he's fishing/testing. I'd push and take a shot at ending this hand right here.

Okay. You're nutz. I agree with most of your answer except for the push. Of course, I've got a little bit of experience playing him. I would make a 1/2 pot bet and play it from there. Betting the flop and checking the turn is a sign of weakness. With the flop and turn bets, he may lay down his hand sensing a stronger one. If he's got us beat, in this case, we should be able to figure it out and fold. Of course, a check raise might be a good choice and, if he calls or pushes, we can decide to fold.11 1/2 months ago, when I played him, I raised preflop with AJ. On a J x x flop, I bet 1/2 the pot, he raised, I reraised, he laid it down. Later, when he knocked me out, I raised preflop with JJ, he reraised, I pushed. He went into the tank for a few minutes and called me with QQ to knock me out in 17th. I hoped for a coinflip, if he had AK, and I would have won it because the board was 9 high when it was dealt.Grinder likes to push people around when he can, but he had the goods this time and I should have laid down the JJ preflop and waited for a better opportunity to see a cheap flop.

[DanielNegreanu]

Some of you dudes are way off ??????????????????????????????????????????

[Bubba83]

I think it's close between checking and betting 50% of the pot. Our flop bet is so weak that I think he calls with any hand he has. The Grinder will make the call to try and slow us down if we missed so that he might be able to pick it up on the turn. Since the turn makes the board fully rainbow, I think the best choice would end up being check, because I doubt The Grinder is coming over the top of a 50% pot bet that often without a hand that beats us. We are out of position against a great player who also has a large stack, so I think this is a very risky situation, which suggests we should play it carefully the whole way through, that's why I picked check.The reason I think he won't be so quick to pounce on a 50% pot bet on the turn is that with the WPT final table structure he would probably be commiting most or all of his chips if he makes the raise, despite the fact that you guys are two of the biggest stacks.I think the bigger question for me is what to do after we check, what's our line? If he checks behind we are going to want to value bet the 50% of the pot on the river I would assume. But what happens when we check and he bets 50% of the pot? Are we raising? Raising puts us in a pretty tough spot if we're beat, since we would have commited a lot of chips with this line. I guess we'd be check/calling the turn and then doing god knows what on the river...If we check, he bets 50% of the pot, and we call, do we donk-value bet the river? Or just check/call again?

[Smank]

We should be betting a third of the pot on the turn/As we were the aggressor pre-flop, the Grinder can naturally assume that we're making a continuation bet regardless of the flop. Only betting a 1/3 of the pot gives him good odds to call, and he has a chance to steal the pot later if we show weakness. I believe we are ahead as the only hands he could be playing that beat us at the moment are A/K and K/Q and he probably would have reraised preflop if he was holding either of these, while being in position there is a good chance he could flat call a less strong starting hand such as K 10 or K 9Him just calling our flop bet is very suspect. If he was holding a K he would probably come over the top for a re raise, so I beleive as our bet was so small, that he is either very strong or weak, most likely the latter.Our main concern for a 1/3rd of the pot bet is him coming over the top of us for a reraise, as I believe the only reason he is still in this hand is to try and steal the pot from us on the turn or river. I think we should flat call any resistance and that should be enough to scare him off from outplaying us on the river. We don't want to get too involved if he does actually have us beat.Betting half the pot will probably cause him to fold as we are making it tough for him to come over the top of us and calling doesn't give him enough of an opportunity to take the pot down on the river with a weak handChecking the turn is similair to the 1/3rd pot bet as he may very well bet into us giving us a chance to reraise, but us checking the turn is probably scary to The Grinder as betting is going to be our play for 90% of the hands we might be holding. We shouldn't get too fancy with our hand.

[Balloon guy]

Check! You are Daniel Negreanu, why would you go bust with a weak hand like KJ when you are one of the chip leaders at the FT?Grinder isn't going to bluff off his chips here either.Check check is the most likely turn play, then we'll see what to do on the river if we catch a J.Final Table is the key you guys are missing here.

[Antoni]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, January 1st, 2007, 12:11 PM, said:

You are at the final table of a WPT event and came in raising from late position with K-J. The Grinder calls your raise from the button and the two of you take the flop heads up to the turn. You are both among the leaders in chips with five players remaining. The flop comes K 4 2 rainbow. You decide to bet 33% of the pot and he calls you. The turn card is an off suit 8... what now?

Trying to think of the possible hands we could put him on here, I'd say it's fair to say that the grinder probably wouldn't just call from the button with K4, K2, or K8. Since from the button he would also probably re-raise with AK to weed out the SB and BB, we can eliminate AK as well. AA and KK are possibilities since he could have been trapping, and there was nothing too scary on the flop to halt that strategy. 88 isn't much of a possibility either, since it's probable that he would have played that on the flop. 44 or 22 are the other hands he could have since they would not have been bad calls on a LP raiser. Either way, his smooth calling pre-flop and on the flop are warning signs that something is fishy here. He either hit trips or has rolled Aces over our Kings. Betting here will surely result in a re-raise from The Grinder and the only way to win the hand at this point would be to re-raise and hope he's stealing with rags, which of course is unlikely. Furthermore, since we raised pre-flop and the flop doesn't even have a flush draw on it, it's safe to say that The Grinder realizes we are betting Kings. Easy check/fold here.

[simo_8ball]

Antoni, the Grinder will call our bet on this flop with a huge range which includes A4, 54, any pocket pair, plus KQ or a set. Check/folding is far too weak. If we check, it is to get more value from his range.

[shpaget]

Well....this may be long-winded, but I'm thinking out loud here, and I'm going to type as I think. (kind of an experiment for me)Mr. M knows you are fully capable of making a continuation bet here.His smooth call could indicate extreme strength...or it could simply mean he wants to keep you honest - his call SHOULD have the same effect as a raise - it will tell him whether or not you have a hand on the turn...he may have something like 77, 88, 99 and think he's good...He could have something like A4, and think he could be good.I think Grinder could easily call preflop with AK/KQ/KT/K9 here...along with a lot of pairs up to 99 - I'm going to assume he reraises with TT or higher, but that's not a given either.To my knowledge, Grinder is tighter when facing a preflop raise, though, at the same time, he knows the raise came from late position. This is more true if we are DN here, who ain't exactly the Rock of Gibraltar, but it's just as true if he's playing against me (and I'm assuming the guy raising with KJ is me, not DN).I think he could smooth call your flop bet with many of those hands, whether he has top pair better kicker, top pair worse kicker, a medium pair, or a set. Unless you got cute with 53 preflop, he's likely to believe he's way ahead...I personally think that if you are willing to go all-in, then check, and see if he will bet for you. Otherwise, there is ZERO reason to bet all-in. There are no real draws to worry about, and if you are winning then you are likely dodging either 2, 3 or 5 outs. He is not going to call an all-in with a hand that you beat...and he is not going to fold a hand that beats you (except perhaps KQ).If you are willing to bet half or a third of the pot, I still think a check "could" be good to see if he'll bet for you - again, you're not worried about draws. If you ARE ahead, and you bet the turn, he'll likely believe you have the king and fold any hand that is behind....your only hope would be that he would want to showdown with KT...that might be the most difficult hand for him to fold. If he calls or raises, you are likely beat - if he has 99 he'd have to put you on a total bluff, or 77, to think he's winning (the advantage to the small turn bet is it is a cheap way to find out where you are, and lets you manage the pot size).The challenge arises when you check and he bets the pot or 3/4 of the pot, where you could have got your information for 1/2 the pot.Will he see a 1/3 pot-sized bet on the turn as weak, or suspicious?And, at this point, you need to pick up some physical tells.The problem with checking is, if he puts in a 1/3 or 1/2 pot-sized bet, you don't know if he's betting for value with KT or 99, or with KQ or 88. But, as I stated earlier, if you were willing to put in that bet anyway, it may be better to check and see if he bets - you may get more value out of it, and you're not too worried about draws. Unless he's really frisky, I can't see him calling a raise with too many worse hands, but he could open with some worse hands, not necessarily to bluff, but to either get some value, or to simply shut down any possible draws (let's say he has 99....he'd bet 'cause he thinks he's a ahead and he hates any over card on the river).Check.Closely followed by 1/3 pot-sized bet.Then 1/2 pot bet.All in plain sucks.

[revhq2646]

Ok, he called our raise pre-flop. He called out bet post flop. This is the final table at a WPT event, even if it wasn't the Grinder at this level he is either slow playing, chasing, or looking for a chance to steal. All I'm certain of is he doesn't have a lone king as he would have to try and take the pot on the flop or fold. We need a bet that will let us know if he has the set/2 pr with out us going broke.If he is slow playing we want to get out of his way with minimum damage, if he is chasing or stealing we want him to lay it down. All in is out of the question. If you seriously consider this option, please pm all of your player handles.Check, if he has a made hand or he is drawing he checks behind us. So this doesn't allow us to identify his hand. Also it is asking him to try and steal. If he trys a weak steal we might be able to reraise, but if he bets twice the pot, I'm not going over the top w/ Top pair. 33% of the pot. The Grinder could view this as an attempt to continue a steal, inviting him to re-raise. Also if he is drawing to a straight he getting the right odds to call.50% of the pot. Now he is priced out if he is drawing to a straight. We are showing agression by increasing our raise. He doesn't know if we have top pair, are stealing or have a set, but it is going to be difficult for him to call if he doesn't have at least top pair. If he calls or goes over the top, he probably has us beat and we will have to check/fold on the river.

[Antoni]

Well, looking at the options again.All-in: Risking the first or second chip lead with 5 left on a top pair mid kicker. This is extreme over-betting and you can get the same information from the 30% or 50% bets.30% Bet: Too small, it's possible but unlikely that he played 35 suited and might call this small bet. 50% Bet: This may be what he was looking for. If he calls or raises we are still stranded in this hand. If he calls the 50% can we honestly bet out on the river again? If he raises it's a simple choice really, so why bet at all?I think it's fairly obvious we are dead in the water here, so why lose any more chips? Live to see another day imo.