Jump to content


Quiz Question #24


  • Please log in to reply
72 replies to this topic

Poll: Q-3 Off Suit (795 member(s) have cast votes)

What is the Best Play?

  1. Fold (350 votes [44.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.03%

  2. Call (23 votes [2.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.89%

  3. Raise to 5,500 (51 votes [6.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.42%

  4. Raise to 10,000 (305 votes [38.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.36%

  5. Go All in (66 votes [8.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.30%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#21 simo_8ball

simo_8ball

    Multipass

  • Members
  • 9,277 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Favorite Poker Game:PLO/NLHE

Posted 29 December 2006 - 02:31 PM

making this move just doesn't fit in with the small ball style of play at allYes it does. You make a raise preflop to steal a mid-sized pot. It fits smallball perfectly.

#22 michael1123

michael1123

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 29 December 2006 - 03:14 PM

View Postrevhq2646, on Friday, December 29th, 2006, 5:30 PM, said:

you don't trust your reads, now I may not trust my reads, I clearly don't trust your reads, but this is Daniel F*&$!@# Negreanu making the read, I'm gonna go with it.
Daniel himself says that he doesn't get strong (read: very reliable) preflop reads and is amazed at how John Juanda is able to. I'm primarily an internet player, so my reads mostly come from betting patterns, and the only thing you can somewhat figure out preflop from a standard raise and a call is a wide range of hands. There's no super specific reads possible from these results, and the post mentioned nothing about a strong physical read, just a general "feeling". This sounds more like a feeling that a player like Matusow or Juanda would act on, but not the type of feeling that a primarily postflop player should act on.And by the way, I do usually go with my reads (sometimes too often, sometimes not enough), but I find its best to have a very strong read before I make an unnecessarily risky play, particularly with such a big stack. And for me, personally, I'm not able to get a strong enough read preflop from a standard raise and a call.These types of thoughts go through my mind often at a poker table, but often the best conclusion often ends up being the obvious one and moving onto the next hand. Particularly in good structured events its important to not try to get too fancy and end up donking of chips when there's no need to make the move. If this question wasn't written by Matusow, maybe it was written for Matusow, as this is exactly the type of hand that can lead to a Matusow like blowup when the reads on one of the players is wrong or when one of the blinds wakes up with a monster.

#23 michael1123

michael1123

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 29 December 2006 - 03:18 PM

View Postsimo_8ball, on Friday, December 29th, 2006, 5:31 PM, said:

making this move just doesn't fit in with the small ball style of play at allYes it does. You make a raise preflop to steal a mid-sized pot. It fits smallball perfectly.
No ... it really doesn't. Smallball players typically don't reraise with trash very often. They often get the image of a maniac because they play so many pots, but they actually are very careful to protect their stacks when they have big ones.

#24 shpaget

shpaget

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,603 posts
  • Location:Canada, eh
  • Interests:beer

Posted 29 December 2006 - 03:54 PM

Quote

Actually, I completely agree with the other guy. The move would make a lot more sense with a hand that could take a flop like 76s. Your cards only don't matter if you don't get called, and these two players have 34k-41k between them
You don't want to get called, and you are making a raise to 10k because your reads and experience suggest that you won't....if both players fold 2/3 times (along with the blinds), you profit.You are not going all-in because one of the blinds may still wake up with a monster....you are not calling or minraising because you don't want to play 4 players with q3o, even in position. (you can call/smallraise here, just know exactly why you're doing it)ftr - if I had a had like 76s that is where I'd be inclined to make a smallish reraise, or call, from the button.As far as me - in this scenario I can virtually flip a coin between raising to 10k or folding.
"Yeah, well, sometimes nothin' can be a real cool hand."

#25 michael1123

michael1123

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 29 December 2006 - 04:01 PM

I don't hate a raise, but if you're going to raise, raising to 7k is way better than 10k.Since that's not an option, I think folding is easily the best choice there is.

#26 Orcasgt22

Orcasgt22

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 457 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Edmonton
  • Favorite Poker Game:2-7 NL Single Draw

Posted 30 December 2006 - 07:06 PM

Fold or Raise to 10k. Both work. I would raise. Showing Q-3os would destroy your table image which isn't bad because switching gears to loose aggressive from tight passive would confuse players and players with no reads usally either fold big hands or call all the way with medium ones. Thats a good reason to raise.Folding is a good idea too.....Q-3 is a garbage hand that is dominated by many many many hands that anyones could be raising.
Statistics are like Bikini's: They are intresting for what they reveal but crucial for what they conceal

#27 kung fu

kung fu

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 31 December 2006 - 12:21 AM

Your table image isn't going to be ruined cos its unlikely that people will see your hand. A good number of times this will work and your opponents will both fold. There's no point having an image if you aren't going to use it. If we are facing a solid hand, we might face a call, but we'll still have position. If we are facing a monster (which are reads say is unlikely), we will know about it. Either they will re-raise (in which case we will be in a good position to fold) or we will again have position on the flop.Raise 10K. A fold is a legitimate move as well, but you can't let your stack erode. Although you are in a comfortable chip position, you should be playing to win.

#28 omahahilo

omahahilo

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Validating
  • 330 posts
  • Location:Denver - Colorado
  • Interests:Poker - Football Pro/College

Posted 31 December 2006 - 09:10 PM

This is sorta complex in my opinion.The first player may well be trying to steal the blinds. Maybe.But in order for the second person to just call I think he's got a big big hand here.This is why.He may not be worried about the first guy, but he has to worry about the action behind him, clearly he is not. I don't care what this guys image is. If he wanted to take this pot down he would make a bigger raise here to discourage the blinds from calling him down. I know you have to have a bigger hand to call than to raise so ....My range on this guy would be something like this. Either he's got a big pair. AA, KK, QQ, or a big suited AKs AQs. The reason I don't think he has a limp hand like 8-7s is because he's not likely to have many opponates in the hand and he doesn't stand to make much if he flops a straight or the like. If two more people were in the hand I would give more credit for that type of holding. Since I put him on this range of hands, and there are still more people to act behind me I'm folding here. Especially since Q-3 is definately not the hand I wanna go to battle with here. An overcall is all but suicidal here. And another thing to consider is if you wanna double up two short stacks with this sort of hand. Why give more chips to two small stacks? I want these two small stacks to fight it out and maybe one will knock the other out. You're up another position and even if one doubles up he's still well behind your stack, he still has to respect you.I fold.Thoughts?
its always something

#29 dkelloway

dkelloway

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 75 posts
  • Interests:soccer, poker, hockey

Posted 01 January 2007 - 09:31 AM

This hand kind of reminds me of Dan Harrington's 2004 WSOP squeeze play. We all know how tight he is. He noticed Arieh raising from every position with marginal starting hands. Raymer calls with A2 knowing this. So, dan took his 62 and reraised them big... and they both folded. So, if you're projecting that type of image I think it's ok to raise to $10,000 here since it will be respected and you know that the caller doesn't need a great hand to call his raise.Also, your hand is garbage, if you had something like 87s where you would like to see a flop with I would prob just call, but since your hand is so bad, you're going to make this play with lesser hands than you're going to call with.

#30 julkop01

julkop01

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 2 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Texas Hold'Em

Posted 31 January 2007 - 05:26 AM

You can't call. Blinds are so small compared to your stack that you should play tight and everyone has seen that you do so. It's between folding and raising to 10k. Folding would risk you nothing and it just proofs even more that you are playing very tight when someone else sees that you could have squeezed them out of the pot but you didn't. That would give you leverage to make even a better bluff later on against someone you would want to take chips away from. Raising to 10k is always +EV and would show others that you are capable of doing so. Also helps you to get chips later when you do everything exactly like you did with that Q3 when you hit a monster. Someone raises and other player lims in and now you make the same move with AA. Someone in the pot who saw you make the move last time hears a bling in his head and reraises you and you have set you up for winning a huge pot or even bust someone out of the tournament.You just need to go with your feeling. If you feel even a little bit afraid that you are going to get called, then fold. It helps you later on. Don't go gambling if you are not sure. If you know they will fold, go for it, as I said, it's +EV.Btw. I'm not a pro. Just a man who thinks a lot and does the exact opposite just to see that I should have done exactly what I thought in the first place. It's just in my nature :club:

#31 aadams_22

aadams_22

    Shit Pickle

  • Members
  • 8,636 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Frankfort, IL

Posted 01 February 2007 - 05:52 PM

you have an M of 100 and a trash hand...easy foldwith a better hand I would consider the squeeze play and raise 10K, but not with Q3o
2009 FCP Fantasy Baseball Keeper League Champion

#32 TheRake!

TheRake!

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 1 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL Holdem

Posted 04 April 2007 - 09:59 AM

I will start by saying that I have not yet viewed the answer to this question, but I do see that it has been posted, so even with the risk of sounding like a donkey, I will give my two cents. I assume that because you added the point about you having a tight table image and a read that neither of the two players in the pot have a strong hand, your gut is telling you to make some kind of SICK play, which I am ok with. The question now becomes - How SICK of a bet? Some would argue that you should make a raise to between 8 and 12k, but I think this is the worst thing you could do... If you were right, and the preflop raiser was weak, that doesn't mean that he isn't still desperate to accumulate chips! With a raise like this, it looks like you are raising just enough to fold to another re-raise (which you are). So... Raise enough to show that you wont fold to a raise (which you won't). You can raise to 27-30k, and if the preflop raiser moves in, it's an insta-call, if the preflop raiser folds and the initial caller moves in, it's an insta-call. This play provides equity in a few different ways:1. If both players fold, you win a sizeable pot with a weak hand.2. If one player moves in and you call and lose - Good news - you only lost <20% of your stack, and "Tis Mearly a Flesh Wound!"3. If both players move in, you can call and bust two for only 10k for a 100k+ pot4. If you turn your cards over, the table will see that you have switched gears, and the next time you have a monster, it will be easier to be paid off!I am interested to hear what you think!

#33 flintsword

flintsword

    Poker Forum Nut

  • Members
  • 414 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver, CANADA
  • Interests:Business, Poker, Swimming, Judo, Karate, Travelling, Reading, Math, & Breathing. Qualified into: WPT Cyprus 2009 (50% no $), WPT Paris 2011 (25th = $23,400), WPT Prague 2011 (53% no $), & WPT Prague 2013 (56% no $), WPT Milton Keynes 2013 (60% no $), & WPT UK London (40% no $), & WPT 500 Aria Las Vegas coming up.
  • Favorite Poker Game:Holdem (though PL Omaha Hi is a big fav too)

Posted 08 April 2007 - 06:03 AM

Having shown serious hands that you reraised with preflop, your image must be pretty tight. A 10,000 bet is close to a third of their stacks and they cannot hurt you. The downside of this is that the table will tighten up since players will (correctly) realize that they need a better hand to enter a pot in the future. You will pick up the pot this time but the chances that someone will slowplay a monster or you will be called next time goes up because players will be entering with serous, defendable hands. That said, a tighter table also means you can shift to smaller raises and pick up blinds cheaper. If the 10,000 bet is the wrong answer, I will be fascinated to hear the rationale for a different course of play.
flintsword

"The lucky player is usually the player that knows how much to leave to chance." :D ©

#34 lifeofpoker

lifeofpoker

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 24 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Favorite Poker Game:no limit hold them

Posted 30 September 2007 - 04:36 AM

View Postrevhq2646, on Friday, December 29th, 2006, 3:30 PM, said:

Your cards don't matter because they are Q3. The only time you want to see a flop with Q3 is when you have psychic knowledge that the flop is coming 333 or when you are playing limit and trying to cultivate a loose table image. And you can recast the problem all you want, but you were given reads in the problem, if you never going to play your read, play checkers. You don't have 76s or AA, you have a crappy unplayable pair of hole cards. So you play the players or you fold. It takes no imagination to fold Q3 and it is never a bad play, but this is the perfect set up for a squeeze play. Weak raise, Weak call, two stacks that can't afford to tangle with you, you have a tight image, the only reason not to try and pick them off is to protect your image. (or you don't trust your reads, now I may not trust my reads, I clearly don't trust your reads, but this is Daniel F*&$!@# Negreanu making the read, I'm gonna go with it.) It is a low risk play to pick up $6,500 and make everyone at the table a little more nervous of the big stack.
There is no real reason to be involved in this hand even if you think you have a good read, i would rather let the short stacks fight it out. To win tourneys you have to play basic solid poker and raise/calling with queen 3 doesnt make sense at all. Come on that question is an easy one for any pro.

#35 ShaneO19

ShaneO19

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 153 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Waterloo, NY

Posted 13 November 2007 - 09:12 PM

Fold. Risking 10,000 to win about 5,800 is not worth it and is not going to make much difference in your chances of winning the tournament if it works.

#36 Sick Boy

Sick Boy

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,998 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Favorite Poker Game:Texas Holdem, HORSE

Posted 18 November 2007 - 01:52 AM

I'm almost completly certain that the best play in this postition would be a big bet of 10,000. I can afford a raise like this and it would be extemely difficult for the other two players to make the call, as I have turned over KK and AA earlier in the day and a call off that size would get them pot committed pre flop on the short stack. If they call and I miss the flop completely, I mite try a continuation bet, but if they re-raise, I'll lay down my Queen 3. However, if I hit the flop , I would probably check raise either one or both off them all-in. But that's just me, I could be wrong.:club: :D

#37 Guru1069

Guru1069

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 50 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Emerald Coast Baby!!!
  • Favorite Poker Game:Drink the Beer!!!

Posted 19 November 2007 - 04:15 PM

Q3 ??!! I just barfed on my bacon sandwich.

#38 yorick5270

yorick5270

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 4 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:nlhe

Posted 15 January 2008 - 04:33 PM

View Postnutzbuster, on Friday, December 29th, 2006, 2:43 AM, said:

Fold or raise 10K.Q-3 blows for 10K, so Im folding. :club:
ill fold that for no raise

#39 donShere

donShere

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 3 posts
  • Favorite Poker Game:NL TExas Holdem

Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:28 AM

Where did the first 23 questions ans answers go ? :club:

#40 Zach6668

Zach6668

    FCHL Champion.

  • Moderators
  • 48,107 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Toronto, ON

Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:13 AM

View PostdonShere, on Thursday, January 31st, 2008, 10:28 AM, said:

Where did the first 23 questions ans answers go ? :club:
Follow this image:Posted Image
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users