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Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?


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#41 Mattnxtc

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 01:17 PM

Wanted to make a quick post...DN...in the first article the author spends time talkin about how Sodom was destroyed but that sexual preference was not a part of the reason. Genesis 19 gives a pretty clear picture of the wickedness that the Sodom men were guilty ofGive it a quick read and notice what the men of the city were after. It wasnt Lots daughters. Do i think that the hatred towards homosexuals is warranted? No...I think that people use that sin as a way to avoid owning up to their own sin. It is not a greater sin than lying nor less of a sin than murder...All sin is equal in the eyes of God.
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#42 crowTrobot

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 01:31 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 11:24 AM, said:

You are missing something. In those times homosexual offenders were often straight men and it had nothing to do with sex, but instead was all about power. In wars, men would rape the other men but it wasn't a homosexual act at all. It was forced rape.
no i didn't miss anything. paul thinks men acting on their "burning lust" for "one another" is unnatural reprobate behavior, unrighteous wicked fornication etc etc. i don't see where you get power rape out of that. your original website doesn't even say that - it just tries to brush that chapter aside by saying paul is referring only to the behavior of non-jewish pagan priests.anyway I AGREE WITH YOU 100%. there is nothing wrong with homosexuality - but obviously i wouldn't think so anyway since i don't believe in the concept of fundamental "sin", and i see homosexuality as possibly even a *beneficial* social-evolutionary response to overpopulation. my point (as usual) is that if you take the time and thought necessary to objectively apply THE SAME STANDARD of logical common sense deduction as you are using to judge whether homosexuality is a sin, to the WHOLE of the fundamentalist christian concept of sin/redemption/heaven/hell, the whole thing falls apart as unfair and illogical. instead of parsing small parts of it like you are doing, step back and look at the whole picture, use the same objective logic, and ask yourself if the whole thing really makes sense. IRregardless of whether "a" god exists or not, belief in fundamentalist christianity itself does not stand up to any logical common sense justification you can possibly use. not even close. in fact it requires throwing away objective common sense in the exact same way as treating homosexuality as a sin does.

#43 crowTrobot

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 02:08 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 11:26 AM, said:

You sound really seem ill-informed sometimes. The "sins" in Leviticus for example, weren't sins at all. Did you read the link at all or are you just making assumptions?
yes i read the link. since homosexuality is described elsewhere in the bible, whatever leviticus is talking about is irrelevant. the site you linked uses the same double standard i mentioned -A: the bible must be selectively interpreted to fit science and modern common sense, but..B: the bible must be taken literally to justify belief in the christian god AT ALL IN THE FIRST PLACEso if you need the "holy spirit" (or whatever) to enlighten you as to what specific parts of the bible are and aren't literal, how do you know the holy spirit isn't just you telling yourself what you want to hear to feel better about yourself? how do you know the whole bible isn't fables based loosely on jewish historical events (containing numerous logical and historical contradictions)? how do you know jesus wasn't just a man, and everything written about him isn't embellished greatly to meet the authors own personal agendas? (impossible to disprove since there are no contemporary references to jesus and everything written about him was well after the fact). how do you know stroble's book isn't largely propaganda created more for profit than for god? how do you know everything you "feel" emotionally about christianity being true, and god speaking to you (if he does), isn't a psychological/physical response to christianity conveniently filling an unrelated emotional void and/or appeasing some insecurity you happen to have? considering that you live in an overwhelmingly majority christian culture and aren't exposed in depth to other religions, how do you know islam, hinduism, etc. are invalid and christianity is necessarily valid? how do you know atheism or agnosticism aren't logically valid?have you really tried objectively answering those questions using the same standard of scientific evidence/logic/common sense you are applying to whether homosexuality should be considered a sin or not?

#44 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 02:32 PM

Alright, I had to leave for awhile and do some shopping, and was thinking about this concept DN is backing and one thing that stood out in my mind, that makes it ultimately ludicrous is that in order to translate the scripture in that manner we have to say that homosexuals are not normal men in God's eyes- they get a pass, because they are different, they are abnormal, and something is genetically wrong with them, and since we are assuming the bible is only speaking to straight men, then homosexuals get a pass, because they cannot help it. Now, that idea is obviously false- I in no way back that or think that, all men have fallen short in the eyes of God. But, assumeing DN was right I could accept that- the question is, could a homosexual? Could a homosexual take the thought that God gives them a pass because in his eyes they are abnormal men? Now, DN did not come right out and say that, but understand when you read into the bible like that that is exactly what takes place, and that wedge that you would like to eliminate actually becomes more jagged and powerful.
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#45 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 02:36 PM

View PostMattnxtc, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 2:17 PM, said:

Wanted to make a quick post...DN...in the first article the author spends time talkin about how Sodom was destroyed but that sexual preference was not a part of the reason. Genesis 19 gives a pretty clear picture of the wickedness that the Sodom men were guilty ofGive it a quick read and notice what the men of the city were after. It wasnt Lots daughters. Do i think that the hatred towards homosexuals is warranted? No...I think that people use that sin as a way to avoid owning up to their own sin. It is not a greater sin than lying nor less of a sin than murder...All sin is equal in the eyes of God.
Matt is 100% accurate, as far as the bible is concerned, which is Crows point- either buy into it or don't. I also think that Matt is correct- many people focus on others sin instead of dealing with there own. That's actually part of human nature- the I am not so bad mentality.
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#46 crowTrobot

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 02:41 PM

View PostLoismustdie, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 2:32 PM, said:

Alright, I had to leave for awhile and do some shopping
hmmm shopping saturday afternoon 2 days before xmas. thought i was the only one dumb enough to do that :club:

#47 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 02:49 PM

View PostcrowTrobot, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 3:41 PM, said:

hmmm shopping saturday afternoon 2 days before xmas. thought i was the only one dumb enough to do that :D
Few last minute things. Past couple of weeks have been crazy. I was doing alot of studying to pass my series 7 to get my brokerage license, that way I can actually keep my new job at Charles Schwab. I passed. :club: Took alot of time though, I was basically starting from scratch, in that I really didn't know anything about the world of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, IRAs, etc.- I still don't, just enough to pass that test. Anyway, I had little time for anything else.
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#48 BWToth

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 02:59 PM

Matt:"How do you even make a single decision in your daily life. What happens when a situation arises whose circumstances haven't been discussed in scripture, do you just lay down and go to sleep and avoid it?"How about answering the question, rather then laughing at it then...

#49 BWToth

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:05 PM

Also, what is anyone's answer to the issue about the 'old' law v. 'new' law. You cannot use leviticus as a means to determine the morality of something today with regard to the Bible....period.

#50 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:16 PM

View PostBWToth, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 4:05 PM, said:

Also, what is anyone's answer to the issue about the 'old' law v. 'new' law. You cannot use leviticus as a means to determine the morality of something today with regard to the Bible....period.
Well, in the case of homosexuality we see that what is in the Old is carried over into the New, as evidenced by Pauls writings on the subject. Question for you- whne the words "Old Law" are used, do you even know what that means? I would venture by your stance that you don't.
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#51 mrdannyg

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:17 PM

View PostLoismustdie, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 6:49 PM, said:

Few last minute things. Past couple of weeks have been crazy. I was doing alot of studying to pass my series 7 to get my brokerage license, that way I can actually keep my new job at Charles Schwab. I passed. :club: Took alot of time though, I was basically starting from scratch, in that I really didn't know anything about the world of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, IRAs, etc.- I still don't, just enough to pass that test. Anyway, I had little time for anything else.
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#52 Mattnxtc

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:20 PM

View PostBWToth, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 3:05 PM, said:

Also, what is anyone's answer to the issue about the 'old' law v. 'new' law. You cannot use leviticus as a means to determine the morality of something today with regard to the Bible....period.
This is right and wrong...Most christians see the OT has a history book...It paints a picture of how God dealt with a variety of situation. Obviously the penalties for sin nor how to atone for sin. But that is because of what Jesus brought. The sin is still there and it is still wrong, but now there is an offer of hope for those who do sin. While the punishment doled out in levitucs is irrelevant, the sin itself isnt.

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Matt:"How do you even make a single decision in your daily life. What happens when a situation arises whose circumstances haven't been discussed in scripture, do you just lay down and go to sleep and avoid it?"How about answering the question, rather then laughing at it then...
give me a situation...that you think a christian would just lay down and avoid? I still dont understand what is difficult about this? I would be quite certain that the way I or an other Christian makes decisions is quite similiar to how you make a decision.
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#53 crowTrobot

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:36 PM

View PostLoismustdie, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 11:01 AM, said:

Crow and I don't agree on much, but he said something awhile back that struck me as pretty insightful and it is the rock solid truth. Most people who claim christianity have no idea what the bible actually teaches, and if they did they would realize that they actually aren't really following christianity, but a weaker interpetation of it. I think it was Crow, but it might have been Yorke.
it was me and i wasn't exactly referring to interpretation issues. i was talking about how most people who call themselves christians, for the most part 6 days a week lead pleasure/fun-seeking superficial lives any non-christian would lead. nothing personal against DN but to use him as an example since he blogs most of his activities, compare the time he spends at recreational poker, golf, video games, dicking around with friends, drinking, and other non-christian persuits vs. the time he spends directly witnessing to others or promoting christianity in indirect ways, going out of his way to help others in god's name etc. obviously he does some of the latter, which is commendable in that most people who call themselves christians do nothing at all. but it really seems to be a small part of his life overall, utterly lacking the relevance it would if he really had a grasp of jesus' teachings about giving your entire life to god, and utterly lacking a grasp of the concept that this life is temporary (and extremely short) and everyone's soul is on the line.

#54 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:56 PM

View PostcrowTrobot, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 4:36 PM, said:

it was me and i wasn't exactly referring to interpretation issues. i was talking about how most people who call themselves christians, for the most part 6 days a week lead pleasure/fun-seeking superficial lives any non-christian would lead. nothing personal against DN but to use him as an example since he blogs most of his activities, compare the time he spends at recreational poker, golf, video games, dicking around with friends, drinking, and other non-christian persuits vs. the time he spends directly witnessing to others or promoting christianity in indirect ways, going out of his way to help others in god's name etc. obviously he does some of the latter, which is commendable in that most people who call themselves christians do nothing at all. but it really seems to be a small part of his life overall, utterly lacking the relevance it would if he really had a grasp of jesus' teachings about giving your entire life to god, and utterly lacking a grasp of the concept that this life is temporary (and extremely short) and everyone's soul is on the line.
Agree with you 100% on- wait, let me check and see if you slipped something in I didn't notice- yep, everything you said is right on. Most people don't display anything close to the commitment it takes, and that includes me. Now, I understood what you were talking about in that you, having read the bible can see that most that claim to follow don't actually follow, based on what is in there. That's all I was getting at.
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#55 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:57 PM

View Postmrdannyg, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 4:17 PM, said:

congratulations
Thanks, Mr. DannyG. I appreciate that.
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#56 BWToth

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 03:59 PM

Matt, no, I don't think they do lay down, it was sarcasm...obivously you make decisions about things that aren't in the bible and you use you're own judgment about them. That's my point. you say you have to do what the bible says and not deviate from it, well the bible doesn't address every issue known to man or imaginable in the future does it. So there are holes that need to be filled in.Louis, then how come we eat pork today, etc. etc....there is most definitely a quote in the bible where jesus 'throws out the old law' somewhere where the eye for an eye turns into turn the other cheek. what does paul say about the subject? give me a quote, so I know its real and not just you making it up. thanks.Don't judge what my knowledge about the bible is based on my 'stance' regarding the issue, that is simply ignorant.You guys need to go to college, or read a philosophy or logic book.Then maybe you'll see why the arugments you make don't make any sense.

#57 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 05:32 PM

View PostBWToth, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 4:59 PM, said:

Matt, no, I don't think they do lay down, it was sarcasm...obivously you make decisions about things that aren't in the bible and you use you're own judgment about them. That's my point. you say you have to do what the bible says and not deviate from it, well the bible doesn't address every issue known to man or imaginable in the future does it. So there are holes that need to be filled in.Louis, then how come we eat pork today, etc. etc....there is most definitely a quote in the bible where jesus 'throws out the old law' somewhere where the eye for an eye turns into turn the other cheek. what does paul say about the subject? give me a quote, so I know its real and not just you making it up. thanks.Don't judge what my knowledge about the bible is based on my 'stance' regarding the issue, that is simply ignorant.You guys need to go to college, or read a philosophy or logic book.Then maybe you'll see why the arugments you make don't make any sense.
We eat pork because Jesus specifically says that all meat is O.K. Here is a scripture: 1Tim.4 [3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. The Old Law is definitely thrown away. I ask you again-what exactly is the Old Law? Do you even know? As far as Pauls thoughts on it, here you go: Rom.1[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Clear enough for you? As far as you calling me ignorant, whatever. I can clearly judge your knowledge of the bible by the simple fact that you don't know what the old law is, and you have no idea what Paul said on the matter, much less apparently even a hint of it that you could even do a search for it with a simple bible program. See, if you did, you would know that even if you can't remember where the scripture is located, you know that one of the key phrases is "men with men."Do a search, bing,bang,boom, got it. As far as the bible not addressing every issue known to man-give me an example. I have heard that one so many times, it's almost like somebody else said it and now it's just being repeated over and over. As far as me going to school, it looks to me that when it comes to this subject I can handle myself just fine. School is for fools. Wheeee. I bet nobody can guess what God awful comedy I got that "school is for fools" line from.
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#58 Loismustdie

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 05:36 PM

Also, I have been making arguments that make no sense my whole life,and I always know when I am toeing that line. This isn't one of those times. When it comes to homosexuality and the bible it's quite clear, and really dissapointing how people just brush over it like it means nothing- I mean, this is the word of God. Who gave us the right to just ignore what we want to? I will answer that for you- God did. Not, however, without consequences but you most definitely have the right to do what you will with it.
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#59 nutzbuster

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 05:56 PM

gonna play it safe here and go with the good 'ol "Judge not lest ye be judged". My wife has been in the hair business for over 19 years....and we have many friends of homosexual orientation. They are great friends. The last thing I'm ever gonna do is judge any of them, or any others. That said I do agree with Daniel that many (at least our friends) were born that way. It was NOT a choice, it is who they are, and a few are actually tortured about it within themselves. One friend said he feels cursed! Pretty sad. I wont go any further than to say we have experienced all facets of this, from prejudicies to one our our best friends dying of aids. Only God will have the final verdict.



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#60 Mattnxtc

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Posted 23 December 2006 - 05:56 PM

View PostBWToth, on Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 3:59 PM, said:

Matt, no, I don't think they do lay down, it was sarcasm...obivously you make decisions about things that aren't in the bible and you use you're own judgment about them. That's my point. you say you have to do what the bible says and not deviate from it, well the bible doesn't address every issue known to man or imaginable in the future does it. So there are holes that need to be filled in.
Again im wondering if u have some specific example in mind? Do you not base your decisions on certain criteria? Same as any christian would. Man i get the feeling that you equate christians to aliens or robots who cannot think on ur own. Geez its really not that tough. Bible saws to love thy neighbor. So obviously your decisions shouldnt screw others over. Do not lie cheat or steal...more obvious stuff...The bible provides moral guidelines just as im sure u have moral guidelines you follow. Bible doesnt need to provide advice for every situation b/c if you do follow what it says most decisions really arent that hard...I just dont understand how this isnt common sense for anybody?
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