21 replies to this topic

[GT123]

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is Button with 6:diamond:, 7:diamond:. UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.some people like to raise pre-flop here with so many limpers, but I decided not to.Flop: (7 SB) 8:diamond:, 9:heart:, 3:heart: (8 players)SB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.good flop for me, I raise for value and for a free card if I choose. BB really confused me, call then reraise?WTF?!Turn: (8 BB) T:club: (2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.perfect card, I know I'm ahead.River: (10 BB) 7:heart: (2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.Now heres my question, and a part of my game I'm trying to work on, betting for value on a scary river. Is this river too scary to bet for value. These situations come up often where I miss bets on the river because of a scare card. Or am I right to just check it through when these situations come up?Final Pot: 10 BB

[KDawgCometh]

The check is right not because of the heart, but because it counterfiets your end of the straight. Most people at that level will not play flush draws the way the BB played it so we can assume that that is not his holsing. My guess is a set and J10 is a likely holding and so is A9. I'd still check that river because of the counterfeited straight

[AK33]

I agree the check was correct because of the 7. From my experience you can't just give up because a possible draw hits the river, at least from my NL experience a lot of players will bluff many pots when the scare card falls on the river, if you bet it you are telling your opponents that maybe the heart hit you if of course it didn't hit them. I'd be most afraid of JT like was previously mentioned, the perfect card on the turn would have been a 5 not a T because it would have given you the nut straight (at that moment) but the 7 on the river brings JT into the picture giving him the nut straight and you're left witht the sucker straight. ~Slick~

[Smasharoo]

Flop raise sucks.River check is fine.

[looshle]

What's so bad about the raise on the flop? He's got the button, looks like as good as a time for a free card play as any.

[GT123]

AK33 said:

I agree the check was correct because of the 7. From my experience you can't just give up because a possible draw hits the river, at least from my NL experience a lot of players will bluff many pots when the scare card falls on the river, if you bet it you are telling your opponents that maybe the heart hit you if of course it didn't hit them. I'd be most afraid of JT like was previously mentioned, the perfect card on the turn would have been a 5 not a T because it would have given you the nut straight (at that moment) but the 7 on the river brings JT into the picture giving him the nut straight and you're left witht the sucker straight. ~Slick~

I know the 5 is the perfect card..i meant perfect as in its one of the cards I wanted to see on the turn. Yea I figured he was probably scared of the heart, so even if he had a J he would probably just check call.

[DwayneWayne]

"What's so bad about the raise on the flop? He's got the button, looks like as good as a time for a free card play as any"Why does the flop bet suck?1) you have 6 clean outs.2) you are drawing to the bottom of the straight. (A ten does not give you the nuts)2 good enough reasons to not value raise that flop.

[Rocketwadster]

this term is SOOOOO overused, that I doubt more than a handful of people really know what a value bet is (I know I don't anymore because I here it all the time in what I would perceive to be the wrong situations). Had you bet, and someone raised you, what would you have done? Folded? Called? Raised back? I think a bet on this river as you have described it is anything but a value bet. :naughty:

[GT123]

Rocketwadster said:

this term is SOOOOO overused, that I doubt more than a handful of people really know what a value bet is (I know I don't anymore because I here it all the time in what I would perceive to be the wrong situations). Had you bet, and someone raised you, what would you have done? Folded? Called? Raised back? I think a bet on this river as you have described it is anything but a value bet. :naughty:

a value bet is when you bet a hand that you feel will be called by a hand worse than your own. I used this hand as a example because I've been seeing a lot of hands where i checked the river because of scare card, but ended up missing a bet because the person was check calling a weak hand.heres another example..should i bet this river?Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with K:diamond:, K:heart:. UTG calls, 4 folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.Flop: (9 SB) K:spade:, 3:spade:, 7:heart: (4 players)Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.Turn: (6 BB) J:heart: (3 players)Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls.River: (9 BB) 9:spade: (3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks.Final Pot: 9 BBif my poker term is wrong oh great one, then what does betting for value mean then?? Anyone can bet the nutz on the river for value, it takes skill to know when to bet your marginal ones for value. Thats why I posted this.

[Rocketwadster]

GT123 said:

Rocketwadster said:

this term is SOOOOO overused, that I doubt more than a handful of people really know what a value bet is (I know I don't anymore because I here it all the time in what I would perceive to be the wrong situations). Had you bet, and someone raised you, what would you have done? Folded? Called? Raised back? I think a bet on this river as you have described it is anything but a value bet. :naughty:

a value bet is when you bet a hand that you feel will be called by a hand worse than your own. I used this hand as a example because I've been seeing a lot of hands where i checked the river because of scare card, but ended up missing a bet because the person was check calling a weak hand.heres another example..should i bet this river?Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is SB with K:diamond:, K:heart:. UTG calls, 4 folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Button calls.Flop: (9 SB) K:spade:, 3:spade:, 7:heart: (4 players)Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Button folds.Turn: (6 BB) J:heart: (3 players)Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls.River: (9 BB) 9:spade: (3 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks.Final Pot: 9 BBif my poker term is wrong oh great one, then what does betting for value mean then?? Anyone can bet the nutz on the river for value, it takes skill to know when to bet your marginal ones for value. Thats why I posted this.

who are you referring to? I clearly said in my post that I have no idea what a value bet is. I gave you my input as to whether you should have bet the river or not (I said no). For the new example you gave, my thought is again that you should not bet here :naughty: .I say this because what could these guys have to be calling you like they did? This example reeks of a flush draw to me, which it looks like at least one of them hit. Just my humble opinion :wink:

[GT123]

Rocketwadster said:

who are you referring to? I clearly said in my post that I have no idea what a value bet is. I gave you my input as to whether you should have bet the river or not (I said no). For the new example you gave, my thought is again that you should not bet here :naughty: .I say this because what could these guys have to be calling you like they did? This example reeks of a flush draw to me, which it looks like at least one of them hit. Just my humble opinion :wink:

Oh ic, i thought you were saying I didnt know what a value bet meant. actually in both hand examples the person was calling me down with second pair, thats why I felt i was missing bets. Also there are many hands like these ones where someone was calling me down with second pair and i chicken out on the river, after thinking about it, I felt I was missing out on a lot of money by not betting in these situations.

[Rocketwadster]

A point to ponder - With those boards, you are not necessarily winning the hand, so I don't think that they should be considered value bets. Here's why I think this:You happened to win both of the examples you gave, but lets look at the flip side. If you make your "value" bet (remember, you could be trailing at this point based on the boards you indicated), and got raised, if you call and lose, re-raise get called and lose, or fold (and obviously lose), then it isn't a "value" bet anymore is it. So, by making your "value" bet, it actually ended up being anything but. Based on that line of thinking, I think the better play is to check it out after that river. Just my opinion though. :wink: Smash gave some good insight into a value bet in another post, which I agreed totally with. Can't remember what the post was about, or even in what forum, but he seems to be somewhat of an expert in analytical thinking when it comes to poker and what it means to bet for value. If you can, I would specifically address this issue to him for his insight. 8)

[GT123]

i think I should re-read sshe I have been lazy to and havn't had the time to. I just read the first few pages of river play,and all the answers were there already.

[RonBurgundy]

first hand:its probly been said but don't raise the flop with a low draw to a str8, and with a better draw out there. everything else looks fine.

[Rocketwadster]

i finally finished the limit section on Limit Hold-em from SS2 last night, after posting my little point to ponder there. I believe I am correct in saying that making a value bet in the instances you have indicated is not a value play (even though it would have been in those hands).Harmon says that you should be making value bets when you are more than pretty sure you have the best hand, not when you hope to have the best hand. The possible flush that was made on the river there would tell me that I may have the best hand, not that I am more than pretty sure I have the best hand. After all, they had to have been calling you down with something, with a flush being a very likely occurence thanks to those river cards.Just my opinion. :wink:

[GT123]

Rocketwadster said:

i finally finished the limit section on Limit Hold-em from SS2 last night, after posting my little point to ponder there. I believe I am correct in saying that making a value bet in the instances you have indicated is not a value play (even though it would have been in those hands).Harmon says that you should be making value bets when you are more than pretty sure you have the best hand, not when you hope to have the best hand. The possible flush that was made on the river there would tell me that I may have the best hand, not that I am more than pretty sure I have the best hand. After all, they had to have been calling you down with something, with a flush being a very likely occurence thanks to those river cards.Just my opinion. :wink:

in SSHE it says that it depends on the player your against..some players will call down with bottom or middle pair..etc(calling stations) so when up against one or two opponent thats a loose calling station, you should value bet marginal hands more frequently, especially when they check to you because calling stations won't try and check raise the river usually.On the KK hand if I had position and it was checked to me and both were known as calling stations, I would bet for value. But out of position its much harder. not saying the 2 hands I posted were the right situation, because they were not. Just saying you don't need a monster hand to value bet against a calling station in small stakes holdem.

[Rocketwadster]

i agree, which goes back to what I was trying to say earlier in that not many people know (myself included) what a value bet is and is not most of the time. The examples you gave, I would say no to a "value" bet, but your last post, I agree that a value bet is called for. Make any sense?

[rog]

I think that "value betting" is a bet that where you have an equity edge. In a multi-way that doesn't mean you have to be more than 50% to win, although heads-up it does. 33% to win in a 3 way, 25% to win in a 4 way. I think you are easily 50%+ in your first scenario. You should bet the river, and I would call it a value bet. I'm no expert, but you're betting to get called because you figure to win more than your fair share in this scenario...value bet.I agree with the flop raise being crappy. You caused all the dead money to fold. You're on a draw so you want 1 bet from 3 callers, not 3 bets from 1 caller. You're still behind in this hand, remember? If you're heads up on s straight draw, if you miss your straight, every bet you have to call reduces your EV.

[GT123]

rog said:

I think that "value betting" is a bet that where you have an equity edge.  In a multi-way that doesn't mean you have to be more than 50% to win, although heads-up it does.   33% to win in a 3 way, 25% to win in a 4 way.  I think you are easily 50%+ in your first scenario.  You should bet the river, and I would call it a value bet.  I'm no expert, but you're betting to get called because you figure to win more than your fair share in this scenario...value bet.I agree with the flop raise being crappy.  You caused all the dead money to fold.  You're on a draw so you want 1 bet from 3 callers, not 3 bets from 1 caller.  You're still behind in this hand, remember?  If you're heads up on s straight draw, if you miss your straight, every bet you have to call reduces your EV.

the reason the dead money folded wasnt because of my raise..it was because of the unexpected 3-bet from the BB. If BB didnt reraise(and there is no reason for me to think that he would reraise since he just called originally)then everyone else would have called one more bet. I think for the free card alone is a good enough reason to raise. What if BB didnt reraise? then my raise wouldn't have been - EV right? the decision here between calling and raising are close, either one isn't a bad play.

[DCWildcat]

Not a big fan of the flop raise, seems unnecessary.River check was very good. Pot is big enough that he'll just call a bet for pot odds. If he raises you know you're beat. Just check her.