10 replies to this topic

[Alex916F]

hey guys,

I just got back from playing probably the best live tournament i have ever played. It is in colusa in norcal, 30 min. levels 10k starting stacks and the blinds rise pretty gradually. 3 hands i really want some criticism on what i think are key in the tourny for myself.....

1st hand of note.

this is probably the 4 or 5th level, blinds 300/150 with a 50 ante

pot preflop (8 players) 850

I am UTG with AA and a stack of about 19k

I raise to 1000 total, folds to button, call, rest fold (pot 2850)

flop

J 3 5 two clubs

I bet 1750 button calls (pot 5.5k approx.)

turn

J

I bet 4k button insta shoves.......


Reads: I really wanted to limp reraise on this hand considering i am UTG and have a monster, i decided to raise it though because there just wasn't enough raising pre-flop that i thought i could reliably count on a raise. the table was playing really straight forward as live games seem to usually play. the thing was that when someone hit their hand really solidly such as top two a set or flush they did these ridiculous overbets/pushes .... so it was a pretty easy to stay out of trouble.

the button was one of these ppl like this, i saw him open shove in a limped pot when he flopped a wheel, almost everyone at the table were showing their hands to each other after all the action was concluded (me not being one). when the button shoved when that second jack hit i knew that AJ KJ QJ JT were totally in his range i saw him call with much worse earlier.

When he shoved i said, "you push? that sucks....." and started humming and hahing deciding whether i should call, initially i thought he could be on a flush draw. I gazed at him and he was looking off in the distance trying to be as non confrontational as possible and i know from my caro's book of tells that usually means strength. even though i have already put almost half my stack in the pot i had no desire to put my money in with two outs... so i folded



2nd hand:

FT 9 players top 8 get paid

with a lot of luck and some really weak play from the table i was at i had built my stack to about 43k

blinds 3k/1.5k 400 ante pot preflop = 9k approx

so i am on the shorter side but definately still have a chance i sit about 4 or 5 in chip count.

relevant chip counts UTG about 15k ish button 39k some big stacks some ppl with short but managable stacks.

i am in bb with AJo

folds to button he raises to 11k total 1 fold

i ask him to count his stack because at this time he was on a rollercoaster ride and i wasnt sure of his stack..... he sort of shakes his head as if in disgust that i asked him that. i think for a bit ..... and shove.....


reads: i knew this guy, he is a dealer in sacramento where i live. And we allknow the rumors of dealers being aggro-donks. on the first hand that he showed down he confirmed just that when he raised in middle position then got min raised he called. flop came down Q 6 5 and he open pushed into the reraiser, reraiser called with KK and dealer showed 77.

through a lot of luck and double uppage he had the stack he had at the moment of this hand. when i asked for his count he really didnt seem pleased with me asking him that as if to say, "oh crap i dont want action" so i thought he likely was on a steal which he is very capable of or a weak ace. so i went with my read.....

thoughts... and this was the biggest buy in tourny i have ever played and the money was semi important to me but wanted to do everything in my power to put myself in a good position to win or go really deep in the tourny.

it was a sick tourny 42 ppl entered and there was plenty of overlay, there were the typical live game donkeys and some ppl who seemed like they knew what was up but after sitting down with them i thought i had at least their skill maybe a bit more.

[offset]

Hand 1: Check the turn. Betting is really bad. Without reads, if he bets I probably call since he would have probably raised top pair on the flop, he might check behind if he has a J, and a bet could easily be a flush draw or pp.

Hand 2: Standard shove. A8 and up are automatic shoves in this spot, but usually your pushing range should be larger.

[copernicus]

Hand 1: Check the turn. Betting is really bad. Without reads, if he bets I probably call since he would have probably raised top pair on the flop, he might check behind if he has a J, and a bet could easily be a flush draw or pp.

Hand 2: Standard shove. A8 and up are automatic shoves in this spot, but usually your pushing range should be larger.

Hand 1 I dont want to give a free card to a flush draw or lower two pair. Stacks are deep enough to lead here.

Hand 2 While I would usually prefer to wait for first in vigorish, your read on the button is that hes aggro, and very likely to be on a steal to begin with. Then with your feeling him out with counting down etc. he's either done a great acting job or would prefer just take down the blinds. You may be in a race against a low pair, but I doubt youre dominated and may well dominate him.

[throwemaway]

Hand 1 I dont want to give a free card to a flush draw or lower two pair. Stacks are deep enough to lead here.

Hand 2 While I would usually prefer to wait for first in vigorish, your read on the button is that hes aggro, and very likely to be on a steal to begin with. Then with your feeling him out with counting down etc. he's either done a great acting job or would prefer just take down the blinds. You may be in a race against a low pair, but I doubt youre dominated and may well dominate him.

In hand 1, I think we get outplayed a lot by betting the turn...He could raise with a ton of hands, and its going to take a truly heroic read to call a big raise..I think if we check, we can narrow his hand range down better that way...Lets say he checks behind...Depending on the river(if its a blank) and our read, we can either plan on check/calling a moderate sized bet, or potentially put a blocker bet out there..You say your table was pretty straightforward and there wasn't a lot of trickyness, so I don't think this is an awful idea....

Hand 2: With your read of the button and past hands AJ is well ahead of his range..Be aware though, that weak usually means strong and vice versa, and his annoyance of your question could be an act to entice a re raise..Since this is live though, your going to have to go with your read...but going strictly from a hand ranges/table image/table position sense, pushing AJ here imo is +ev

[Alex916F]

Hand 1 I dont want to give a free card to a flush draw or lower two pair. Stacks are deep enough to lead here.

Hand 2 While I would usually prefer to wait for first in vigorish, your read on the button is that hes aggro, and very likely to be on a steal to begin with. Then with your feeling him out with counting down etc. he's either done a great acting job or would prefer just take down the blinds. You may be in a race against a low pair, but I doubt youre dominated and may well dominate him.

thanks for the opinions guys.....

this is the exact reason why i decided to bet the turn as well, my initial thought was that he may be on a flush draw considering that was the only reasonable draw i could put him on. he shoved... i felt strength from him what am i supposed to think???

[offset]

Hand 1 I dont want to give a free card to a flush draw or lower two pair. Stacks are deep enough to lead here.

Meh, you and I always disagree. I think we catch him bluffing the turn enough or we are able to get more out of 66-TT on the river often enough to check the turn. I'm not worried about giving lower two pairs a chance to catch two outs.

[copernicus]

In re-reading this without focusing on your initial question, I realized that you only raised to 1k preflop, with a CPR of 850, which I think is too low. With a solid hand you should offer less than 2:1 odds to the big blind and the rest of the odds will fall in line. I would go to 1500 here preflop. I dont know if that changes buttons play or not, I dont see his stack here, but I think 2:1 to the big blind is a good rule of thumb when there are antes, unless of course youve been playing small ball all along.

[Alex916F]

well this was actually i little bit larger than i normally do which is typically 3x the blinds. i went to 1k because i thought maybe that extra 100 would be enough to stop 5 ppl calling me with trash. this raise was pretty much the established raise at the tabe though like a said, there wasnt much raising going on. sometimes it would be an open push by some donkey, sometimes it would be a ridiculous raise of half their stack..... 1k was reasonable. coper, you do have some good points mathematically but the table was consistantly folding to min bets when it was 5-7 player limped pot. even if i offer bb good odds on their money they are still very dependant on the cards they get.


lets say i change up my play on hand 1 and check the turn...... he pushes whats my play now??? i really feel that whether i check or bet with this particular player he is pushing either way, like i said in my reads section he just open pushed sometimes....

next post i will post results and i have one more hand to discuss

[copernicus]

well this was actually i little bit larger than i normally do which is typically 3x the blinds. i went to 1k because i thought maybe that extra 100 would be enough to stop 5 ppl calling me with trash. this raise was pretty much the established raise at the tabe though like a said, there wasnt much raising going on. sometimes it would be an open push by some donkey, sometimes it would be a ridiculous raise of half their stack..... 1k was reasonable. coper, you do have some good points mathematically but the table was consistantly folding to min bets when it was 5-7 player limped pot. even if i offer bb good odds on their money they are still very dependant on the cards they get.
lets say i change up my play on hand 1 and check the turn...... he pushes whats my play now??? i really feel that whether i check or bet with this particular player he is pushing either way, like i said in my reads section he just open pushed sometimes....

next post i will post results and i have one more hand to discuss

Absolutely if they are folding to smaller bets, then go for it. That was my point on playing small ball earlier in the tourney, because it can lead to tighter calling ranges to smaller raises. In general though, 3x bb is too small with antes. 3x bb became the standard raise because it gives the blinds average odds of 2:1. When there are antes their odds go up and they become much harder to read on many flops.

[Alex916F]

coper,

are you looking at this as a purely mathematical thing for the bb? such as saying well IF the bb decides to call he is getting a great price. against intelligent thinking opponents who know the math of poker i can justify a larger raise so the bb isnt getting good odds but this was not the case for this table.



Results: hand one i ended up folding and the dealer along with most ppl at the table thought i had aces because of how long i lemented about the decision. after the hand i asked the player if he could beat aces and he said no he had pocket kings. to me that was sucha big hand i actually asked him if he was telling the truth about 3 or 4 times after that deeper in the tourny and every time he emphatically said he had kings. so i did read him for strength, i was right about that but the strength he had just still didnt beat me. I just couldnt put him on that hand because he smooth called preflop.....


hand two: the dealer ended up calling me and he showed TT. when he called i thought i was in big trouble that at the best a 30 percent chance of winning. when he showed TT i was actually relieved a bit. i thought, wow i can win races. the flop came down KQx and i thought i was looking good to win the race, but as it goes i lost the race and was left with about 5k in my stack. the dealer agreed with me that he would have made the same play.... it sucked but whatever.... he could have folded, i know i probably would have, on th bubble with a guy who has me covered and at best its a coinflip.....



ok 3rd hand:



so now i have about 5k left i am in the sb with 1.5k out there and 3.5k behind i look down at T9o a guy that was on quite a heater limps in early position then they guy on the buttonwho was a short stack pushes all in i decide to fold because T9o is not an all in calling hand and there is a possibility of the early limper to call this dude.

...now the actual 3rd hand: so know i have 3.5k on the button the guy who pushed didnt get called. 2 limpers and i look down at j9o ..... i know that when you get so ridiculously short your actual hand you put in the middle matters again.... is this a good hand? i ended up putting it in and never improved, pocket 66 won i was bubble boi

[copernicus]

coper,

are you looking at this as a purely mathematical thing for the bb? such as saying well IF the bb decides to call he is getting a great price. against intelligent thinking opponents who know the math of poker i can justify a larger raise so the bb isnt getting good odds but this was not the case for this table.

Yes, Im looking at it mathematically, but it isnt necessry for the villain to KNOW the math. What you are trying to accomplish is to not "force him to make good decisions". Its rare that someone is going to call with a hand where getting 2:1 odds is a mistake.

The KK hand was played atrociously, of course. You can't be expected to read hands and make rational decisions when someone has absolutely no clue. All you can do is hope they make critical mistakes against you and that you dont catch AA vs KK before you realize how bad they are.