11 replies to this topic

[HangukMiguk]

I'm still getting lost in the midgame of a tournament. I have read, reread, and reread HOH2's Inflection Points section until I can almost recite it by heart.

I still am having problems playing Yellow and, to some extent, Orange zones properly. My main concern is the Yellow zone, as I know I need to be playing somewhat tight, but I need to be playing looser than I would at green to accumulate chips. At the same time, I can't figure out what a decent range needs to be to play here.

It's quite annoying to me. Advice?

[tskillz187]

I'm still getting lost in the midgame of a tournament. I have read, reread, and reread HOH2's Inflection Points section until I can almost recite it by heart.

I still am having problems playing Yellow and, to some extent, Orange zones properly. My main concern is the Yellow zone, as I know I need to be playing somewhat tight, but I need to be playing looser than I would at green to accumulate chips. At the same time, I can't figure out what a decent range needs to be to play here.

It's quite annoying to me. Advice?

Examples please. this is the 6-20m range correct?

[Alex916F]

for what its worth the way i look at the yellow zone is that i can no longer limp and i can no longer call ppl's raises because of implied odds. the only time you should be playing suited connectors are in steal positions andyou should be raising with them for that exact reason, to steal.

when someone raises you have to b confident that you have the better hand and reraise them or push. if you wish to resteal when you are in the bb and a late position raises and you think its likely they are on a steal make sure you you arent reshoving with air, and make sure they are deep enough andyou are deep enough that there is a decent amount of fold equity. and pocket 88s down are almost worthless....

the orange zone is really difficult often times if you raise you are pot committed and if they just smooth call you, you have 2 moves push or c/f. i suggest always being the one putting the money in first unless your cards warrant it. this is a difficult spot to be in and you will have to get lucky but you do have just enough chips to wait for some solid hands to make your plays with....

and thats my one cent.....

[offset]

The zones really only act as a general guidelines. I think it is more important to play your table than your zone. The main thing to think about in the orange zone is that you usually cannot afford to limp OOP because you do not have enough implied odds to profitably call raises from your left.

[copernicus]

for what its worth the way i look at the yellow zone is that i can no longer limp and i can no longer call ppl's raises because of implied odds. the only time you should be playing suited connectors are in steal positions andyou should be raising with them for that exact reason, to steal.

when someone raises you have to b confident that you have the better hand and reraise them or push. if you wish to resteal when you are in the bb and a late position raises and you think its likely they are on a steal make sure you you arent reshoving with air, and make sure they are deep enough andyou are deep enough that there is a decent amount of fold equity. and pocket 88s down are almost worthless....

the orange zone is really difficult often times if you raise you are pot committed and if they just smooth call you, you have 2 moves push or c/f. i suggest always being the one putting the money in first unless your cards warrant it. this is a difficult spot to be in and you will have to get lucky but you do have just enough chips to wait for some solid hands to make your plays with....

and thats my one cent.....

Id charge more for this than one cent...solid advice.

[tskillz187]

when someone raises you have to b confident that you have the better hand and reraise them or push. if you wish to resteal when you are in the bb and a late position raises and you think its likely they are on a steal make sure you you arent reshoving with air, and make sure they are deep enough andyou are deep enough that there is a decent amount of fold equity. and pocket 88s down are almost worthless....

I liked everything you said except for this. I think a resteal is a resteal. The cards shouldn't much matter, you aren't restealing with the hopes of winning a big pot, it's just a side benefit. You can resteal with any 2 it's all about identifying the initial raiser, if you resteal with 47 or if its with qj suited I don't think it makes much a difference.

[copernicus]

Unless i have a desperate stack I generally want some value to steal or resteal, even if its as little as a suited one gapper.

[HangukMiguk]

Unless i have a desperate stack I generally want some value to steal or resteal, even if its as little as a suited one gapper.

And how far low with suited one-gappers would we go in this circumstance? 57s?

this confuses me. we discuss not restealing with air, and making sure our resteal gives fold equity, so why resteal with nothing on a desperate stack? that almost guarantees we don't give fold equity to villain.

unless we're just talking about stealing an unopened pot with ATC on a desperate stack, then i can understand the rationalization of that.

and i have no idea why i responded to your points backwards copernicus, i guess that's the way my mind works at 7am.

[alanstats]

If I think there is at least a 50 percent chance a late position raiser will fold to my BB, I will resteal with any two cards. A lot of times, I force myself into it. When a bully is picking off the blinds from middle to late position a lot, and frequently my blinds, I take notice, and will often tell myself to shove on him the next time he makes that move when I'm the blind. This has been most effective for me because I'm playing the table and not even worrying about my cards. I think as long as you have enough chips where he has legitimate fold equity, it is a totally +ev play to make. With the fold equity, even if you do get called, you're probably at worst 38 percent to win. So, I definitely disagree with the small PP having no value, or at least wanting to resteal with suited connectors. The one time I am super hesitant to resteal is with Ax. The reason is, his 20 percent call range consists almost entirely of hands that dominate us.

Also, with the small pp not having value, I do agree that the resteal may not be the best way to play them from the blinds, because if you get called, he gets to see all 5 cards and its a race. With small pp, as long as he will have fold equity on the flop, I often stop and go...just smooth calling and then pushing the flop. Given his 30 percent chance of hitting the flop, this is also a good play. I used to only stop and go on safe looking boards, that only came with 1 high card. But, recently, If I choose to use the stop and go, I committ to it before I see the flop. If the flop comes with a bunch of low cards, your opponent will probably be folding, and we hope he has big broadway cards, and totally blanked. But often your opponent is making that raise with decent suited connectors, say 78s +, and a lot of pocket pairs, so even if the flop comes AK9 or something, I will stick committed to the stop and go, because your opponent is folding any pocket pair up to jacks, and his suited connectors. So, the stop and go will basically work on the 70 percent of hands your opponent failed to hit. The only time I will slow down and rethink my stop and go with the small pp is on a flop that comes all of 1 suit. Too often, he has flopped two overcards with 1 of the flush cards, and he will probably call you, as the slight favorite.

These plays are all great to make as a way of chipping up without showing down, when you are in the m of 6-15 range. Just be sure your opponent has fold equity when you make one of these plays.

Other than accumulating from the blinds with these plays, I play pretty tight with an M of 6-12 or so. When I am shorter I am just looking for a hand to shove and double with, but this zone (I don't know the color as I haven't read HOH...I know horrible) we have slightly more flexibility. From late position I will still make raises with various suited connectors and obviously better hands, but we have to be wary of our table image. If we do it too much, we will eventually get played back at, and with a shortish M, it will put us to a really difficult decision. In keeping with the idea of being aware of your table image, if you have been playing tight, you can mix up the places from where you make some steals. If you've been quite tight for a round or so, a raise from EP will garner respect, and usually get the job done, and of course, if you get reraised, someone definitely has a real hand since your ep raise screams strengh, thus its an easy laydown.

I agree that the area of a tournament when your M is between 6-15, is the most challenging. We don't want to have to shove, and possibly be in a race situation, but we do need to accumulate chips. My advice is just be wary of situations when you can add chips, without ever risking your stack, or having to show down a hand.


Just my 1/2 cent

[copernicus]

If I think there is at least a 50 percent chance a late position raiser will fold to my BB, I will resteal with any two cards. .....

So, I definitely disagree with the small PP having no value, or at least wanting to resteal with suited connectors.

The one time I am super hesitant to resteal is with Ax. The reason is, his 20 percent call range consists almost entirely of hands that dominate us.

I often stop and go...just smooth calling and then pushing the flop.

50% fold probability is extremely rare in the tourneys I play in, though Im not sure where the small PP comment comes in. I must have missed somebody elses post. The combination of FE and race equity with 55+ makes restealing very attractive with PPs. Suited connectors is where i dont like it. They are a 7 high most of the time, and will lose too often to total bluffs that are priced in or read you for a resteal.

If the stealer only has a 20% call range then I'll still resteal with A. The probabiity of being called AND dominated is then low enough that it doesnt have to work that often to be +EV.

I like Stop and Gos also. However there is an article, I think in 2+2s monthly magazine, that I scanned a few months ago and havent had the time to follow up on. It purports to show that Stop and Gos are -EV vs a push/fold decision.

[alanstats]

The moves I described are more to be made with a medium stack, perhaps around average, where average isnt particularly deepstacked. With a stack like this, the late position villain will definitely have FE, and so with the right read, you really can and should shove with (almost) any two. I do make the resteal with small pp sometimes when I have this type of stack, but not usually. I don't like to do it, because if he does call, I am now racing for my tournament life.
The reshove AI with a small pp is made when I feel like I'm at that stage/stack where I need to take a race, and combined with the slight chance that my opponent will fold a total bluff, this is the right play.

There is never a time when the stop and go is the automatic play, in fact often times folding is the right play, but there are certain situations. To stop and go, both me and my opponent need at least a mediocre stack, and I want to put my opponent on a decent starting hand, but one that he will fold if he blanks. When we both have decent stacks, he obviously won't fold a hand like AK or AQ if I reshove from the blinds, because it looks way too much like a resteal. So, an all in vs. another decent stack is putting myself in a race, and giving him all 5 cards to hit. The stop and go is a way to extract chips from his strong starting hand, knowing he will miss the flop and fold more often than not. So, we've changed a race to essentially a 70-30. I haven't run the numbers, but assuming he will fold any flop he misses, and factoring in the moderate chance that he has a bigger pocket pair, this has to be a +ev play. But again, both the hero and the villain have to have enough chips left for a missed flop to be an easy fold for the villain.

[Alex916F]

when i feel there is a decent chance that a late position raiser is on a steal my range of pushing hands, and this is what i mean by "not air," is 97s and up and if there is any particular thing that hints that the person is much more likely on a steal than usual i will likely stick it in there with any two cards barring something like 23o.

one reason i look at my cards when i make a decision to resteal is that it serves as a good randomizing tool, sure that person maybe on a steal but they did raise and so it is possible that they have a hand. if i choose a hand like a suited connector or a one gapper the times ijust happen to run into a real hand i have something primed and ready to crack it. yes it will likely be in the 20-40percent range to crack it but given the money that is in the pot already will likely have a break even move based solely on the pot odds, throw in the FE and we got a +ev situation here.

and when i said 88 and down are pretty much worthless i meant that as playing them for an open raise or calling etc.