Dealing With The Turn Check/raise

[TheCinciKid 0]

Villain is 20/8/0.93 50ish handsFullTiltPoker (6 max) - $1/$2 - Limit Hold'em (5-handed)Preflop: Hero is CO with A J UTG calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG callsFlop: (5.5 SB) A 3 5 UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG callsTurn: (3.5 BB) T UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero callsRiver: (7.5 BB) Q UTG bets, Hero callsI know this is probably pretty standard, but does anyone do anything any differently here? Is anyone folding the turn?

[Zach6668 513]

It's a lot more difficult when you have air.I 3-bet here.

[mikeysong 0]

against someone w/.93 aggression I play exactly like you didreally zach, u 3bet here? Utg limps and then check-raises the turn. To me he's either got us or he's just dumb

[CoranMoran 0]

Utg limps and then check-raises the turn. To me he's either got us or he's just dumb

I agree with this.But at the 1/2 level (and even above), there are just so many dumb opponents.From a good opponent, a check-raise would either mean:- he is ahead- he is not ahead, but is willing to fold to a 3betIn those cases, 3betting the turn is not really helpful for us.But I have seen so many opponents check raise with something less that our AJ, and then continue to call down our aggression.These are bad players.And they make a turn 3bet profitable.

against someone w/.93 aggression I play exactly like you did

I think the key to this play is to know your opponent.With a read that he is passive, calling down would be best.I often find myself 3betting an unknown on the turn, assuming he is bad.--CM

[mikeysong 0]

lol interestingi give them benefit of the doubt until I see a really dumb play.coran - check pm please

[Zach6668 513]

against someone w/.93 aggression I play exactly like you didreally zach, u 3bet here? Utg limps and then check-raises the turn. To me he's either got us or he's just dumb

I didn't notice his stats. With that AF, it's probably best to call down.However, he sucks already because he limped utg, but I'm so ****ing sick of being c/r'd on the turn. It happens every time I raise PF and whiff, lol, or even if I flop a pair.Either way, I think he has a weaker ace some of the time, lol, so it's worth a call down vs this opponent.

[TheCinciKid 0]

I didn't notice his stats. With that AF, it's probably best to call down.However, he sucks already because he limped utg, but I'm so ****ing sick of being c/r'd on the turn. It happens every time I raise PF and whiff, lol, or even if I flop a pair.Either way, I think he has a weaker ace some of the time, lol, so it's worth a call down vs this opponent.

I'm honestly not so sure it is...which is why I posted this hand, I want to see what everyone thinks. But, here's the thing. This guy has a VPIP of 20, and an AF below one. He's fairly tight pre-flop, and he's not particularly aggro either pre or postflop, so what kind of hand are we putting him on here? I don't think this guy check/raises with air pretty much ever, maybe once in a great while. I'm not even sure he check/raises with a hand as weak as AK here, though maybe. I think this is two pair or a set almost every time and if it's ever safe to fold, this may be the spot. What kinds of hands do you all think he might check/raise with here that we're either ahead of, or drawing live enough to call down?

[mikeysong 0]

I will never be able to answer that based on stats. It's more about reads, which is why you should ALWAYS BE TAKING NOTES.If you notice that he never check-raises tp on the turn and instead donkbets etc, then you could probably fold it.As such, short handed TP with J kicker is a pretty strong hand and worth a call down.

[Zach6668 513]

I bet CoranMoran 3-bets.

[TheCinciKid 0]

I will never be able to answer that based on stats. It's more about reads, which is why you should ALWAYS BE TAKING NOTES.If you notice that he never check-raises tp on the turn and instead donkbets etc, then you could probably fold it.As such, short handed TP with J kicker is a pretty strong hand and worth a call down.

Ack. When did shorthanded become not limit hold'em anymore?! Yeah, taking notes is great, it's not something I'm good at, I don't notice the right things, however there are things I can deduce from a man's pokertracker stats. Like, a 20/8/.9 is tight/fairly passive player. How many tight/fairly passive players check/raise the turn in this spot with hands that AJ is ahead??? I submit that they almost never do. I don't really see why the fact that this is shorthanded makes any real difference either. Just because we're not playing full-ring doesn't mean we have to automatically start believing that every player at the table is FOS. Believe me when I tell you I've fallen victim to this syndrome and it's bitten me pretty hard at times. Yeah, there's more bluffing in shorthanded, people don't always make as big of hands as they might in full-ring, but it's not a completely different game. It's still limit hold'em and turn check/raise from a tight/passive player still ought to set off warning bells.

[mikeysong 0]

people semi bluff a lot more and play their tp/badkicker hands stronger.it's a completely diff world from full ring imo. just log enough hands and u'll see

[Zach6668 513]

sh <> frsh donks <> fr donksainec.

[paulie72 0]

I agree with cinci

Like, a 20/8/.9 is tight/fairly passive player. How many tight/fairly passive players check/raise the turn in this spot with hands that AJ is ahead??? I submit that they almost never do

I do pay off those types like you did, but in my heart I know I am beat. Whenever this happens I do make a note not to pay off this opponent again.

[beans422 0]

Ack. When did shorthanded become not limit hold'em anymore?! Yeah, taking notes is great, it's not something I'm good at, I don't notice the right things, however there are things I can deduce from a man's pokertracker stats. Like, a 20/8/.9 is tight/fairly passive player. How many tight/fairly passive players check/raise the turn in this spot with hands that AJ is ahead??? I submit that they almost never do. I don't really see why the fact that this is shorthanded makes any real difference either. Just because we're not playing full-ring doesn't mean we have to automatically start believing that every player at the table is FOS. Believe me when I tell you I've fallen victim to this syndrome and it's bitten me pretty hard at times. Yeah, there's more bluffing in shorthanded, people don't always make as big of hands as they might in full-ring, but it's not a completely different game. It's still limit hold'em and turn check/raise from a tight/passive player still ought to set off warning bells.

His stats are based on 50 hands so I wouldn't let that be the determining factor in what I do with this hand. Based on 50 hands in different sessions, my opponents would probably think I'm bipolar.As Mikey said, its really more read dependent than stat dependent and w/o knowing much more about villain, I think you played the hand well.

[CoranMoran 0]

His stats are based on 50 hands so I wouldn't let that be the determining factor in what I do with this hand.

I think this is the crucial point.PT stats cause people to make a lot of mistakes, in my opinion.Using a 50 hand sample just doesn't cut it for me.Maybe if it is a really borderline situation.But folding this hand on the turn should not be done without an absolute solid read.And 50 hands can never provide that.--CM

[CoranMoran 0]

I bet CoranMoran 3-bets.

I think a big difference is in how our opponents view us.Because of my playing syle, opponents get fancy with me and check-raise with all sorts of weak hands.It doesn't always make sense.But they do.Often.So I can get away with 3betting, even when it doesn't look like I have any right to do so.If Cinci knows that he is clearly viewed as a tight player, then he should be respecting his opponent's raises more.--cm