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Answer To Quizz Question #22


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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 10:19 PM

This exact hand happened to a friend of mine on the WPT. The first thing I told him, was that by playing the hand tricky, he made it even more difficult to figure out whether or not to call the river bet. He actually set the guy up to think he was making a weak bet at the turn with a hand like QQ, but when he does that, he exposes himself to getting bluffed on the river. The guy may call a bet on the turn with a pair/straight draw and then when he missed, decided to maka a kamikaze bluff at it. A very tricky hand, but the safe, and correct play is to lay the hand down.
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#2 checkymcfold

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 05:46 AM

i agree about the fold, DN, but i'm actually curious as to what you think the villain's hand range would be in this spot considering that we played the hand as we did: kamakazi bluff, 2p, str8, ax, etc.? these are the sorts of (4th?) level thinking things that i'm trying to learn and some more detailed input would be awesome.
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#3 JoRaff

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 02:00 PM

I had the situation down to an "uncallable" bluff bet or a strong hand that senses your small bets as value bets and moving all-in trying to maximize his money. But then I'm thinking, he HAS to have the nuts if he wants to get called by a strong hand. Would he think you're that strong with only a little bet on the turn?...even if it was a value bet? He's holding 10 J or he's holding nothing. If he wanted value for his hand you'd think a smaller bet on the river would do,...you need to figure out if he thinks you're strong or not. It sounds too planned, planned from the turn. He's faced with a small bet, "this guy has nothing and is trying to force me out becuz i have nothing, I'll call and put him to the same decision on the river, making me more money and turning the tables to an even more crucial decision."I think 10 J would be likely to induce a turn bet, I call.

#4 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 04:08 PM

View Postcheckymcfold, on Sunday, November 26th, 2006, 5:46 AM, said:

i agree about the fold, DN, but i'm actually curious as to what you think the villain's hand range would be in this spot considering that we played the hand as we did: kamakazi bluff, 2p, str8, ax, etc.? these are the sorts of (4th?) level thinking things that i'm trying to learn and some more detailed input would be awesome.
1. The way he played the hand, what is trying to represent? Well, since he didn't make a big bet until the 3 hit, he is representing A-3.2. Would this guy make this bet with just the Ace? Am I up against a random weirdo who thinks he needs to bluff with A-10?3. Would this guy bluff the river with a pair? If this guy had a pair and a straight draw but missed the river, is he the type of guy that would bet as a bluff?4. Since I played the hand so strangely, is he just making a random move? 5. If this guy had a made hand would he play it that way? With a set or a straight, would he play it that way?
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#5 shpaget

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 05:03 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Monday, November 27th, 2006, 5:08 PM, said:

1. The way he played the hand, what is trying to represent? Well, since he didn't make a big bet until the 3 hit, he is representing A-3.2. Would this guy make this bet with just the Ace? Am I up against a random weirdo who thinks he needs to bluff with A-10?3. Would this guy bluff the river with a pair? If this guy had a pair and a straight draw but missed the river, is he the type of guy that would bet as a bluff?4. Since I played the hand so strangely, is he just making a random move? 5. If this guy had a made hand would he play it that way? With a set or a straight, would he play it that way?
If he thought you were weak would he play a set, a straight, or even an A3 that way?He's got no reason to think you're strong...so, is his push on the river the new "value bet"?If I call with AK here it's not because I think my hand is strong, but because I think he's bluffing at what he perceives to be my weak hand.
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#6 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 05:49 PM

View Postshpaget, on Monday, November 27th, 2006, 5:03 PM, said:

If he thought you were weak would he play a set, a straight, or even an A3 that way?He's got no reason to think you're strong...so, is his push on the river the new "value bet"?If I call with AK here it's not because I think my hand is strong, but because I think he's bluffing at what he perceives to be my weak hand.
You make an interesting point. However, many of today's players make strange overbets in bizarre situations trying to make it look like a bluff. Do you remember my hand from Niagara where the guy overbet with QQ on a board of Q-6-6-6? It was a very similarly strange play. The question you need to ask yourself are the types of hands villian would be willing to bluff with here that he wouldn't have bet prior?
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#7 AceofSpader

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 01:54 AM

I wouldve went all-in on the turn but I still wouldve called.AoS
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#8 copernicus

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Posted 24 December 2006 - 10:28 AM

I voted fold also, even though it violates Sklansky's basic principle that if you show false weakness you shouldnt back down from someone playing at your weakness. The decision maker for me was whether he would wait until the river to bluff. He is out of position, and if he waits until the river to bluff you have three pieces of additional information..that he was willing to check the turn with a draw on board, whether the river card helped you and whether it was likely to help him. That is a lot to give up that could cost him a lot of fold equity, and I would expect him to make the move on the turn not the river. If he were in position I would be more inclined to call, because now he has the "benefit" of you showing weakness again, and since he has shown no tendency to bet into you, you cant expect him to make a play here, so TPTK would value bet this hand 90% of the time and he has to think he can take it away.
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#9 Nore

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 07:29 PM

Once in a tourney, i raised with 67 suited.. i got one caller.i flopped an inside straight draw. the caller was early so he checked it to me, and i bet out the pot. thinking i could steal it and represent a stronger hand. He just called.The turn was a Q and he checked again. I checked back and had decided not to risk more chips and look at the next free card.The river hit my inside straight and now this guy bets out. Strong and to me that was wonderful, i had the nuts! Now, my point is, he may have called with a pair or just chasing an ace, but he made a move on the river, since i acted weak. He didn't go all in, but what i did in this case was thinking that maybe he actually made something or had trips. Or anything strong and maybe slowplayed it. So i re raise all in. He mucked so i dont what he did. Although this is in reverse order than Daniels ex. it has to a certain degree some resemblance.I think that the guy did a move on the river. obviously he did, since i had the nuts. But a different type of player may have gone all in to steal not just bet hard. It's difficult to judge an episode without knowing something about the person who is making the move. So with AK on a board; A 8 9 7 3 and the guy moved all in, i would consider it a steal. because why would he play like that with a real hand?? when he called on turn, either he made his straight and then moved in hoping for a call thinking we made our hand, or he has nothing and think WE tried to take the pot and were stealing. But we acted weak, so he cant think we had something good, and then we wouldn't call, so he tries to push us off.. Why? But is one pair good? Perhaps, but I would fold.. if its early its not worth it, if it's late you probably has more info on the guy and can judge it more properly.




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