15 replies to this topic

[Roark_8]

So this is my first post in the strategy section, and in that spirit, I'm posting the worst hand I've played in the past week. I thought my limit game was coming along well until I did this last night:PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is Button with J:spade:, A:spade:. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. 3 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.Pretty sure just calling here is correct, right? Flop: (11 SB) J:club:, 6:spade:, 7:heart: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, MP3 calls.Put him on an overpair, reraised to make sure. it was about my 10th hand at the table, so I didn't have any info on him. Turn: (11.50 BB) 7:spade: (4 players)SB checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls.Here's where my "read" on his holding started to lose me money. With 4 people in, I figured it was +EV here to get value on my nut flush draw. If I was more confident in this concept, I cap, right? I think I was so concerned with that concept that the fact that the board paired didn't make enough of an impact on me. River: (20.50 BB) 2:spade: (3 players)SB checks, CO bets, CO calls.Final Pot: 28.50 BB He turned over JJ. And I have officially taken away his right to complain about Jacks for at least a month. I can't complain about a bad beat with my TPTK matching his PP, as 66 would have done the same and I've seen people raise 66 at these limits. The thing that I'm working on is trying to figure out when I should be capping on the river and when not. Obviously, with an aggressive better and the board pairing, even with the nut flush this wasn't the right move here. I know that SSHE says that extracting the most bets out of big pots isn't as important as fixing leaks in your game, but I still let it bother me when I don't get a couple of extra bets on the river when I have someone outkicked, etc. . I guess my post is to a)show that JJ pays off, b)to ask what is the criteria you use in order to keep firing with, let's say TPTK with a safe board, as opposed to slowing down? Do you always slow down when someon reraises you? Only for typically passive players? Do it more than not as it will pay off in the long run? Roark-8

[HtotheNootch]

I've actually started to like Js. They've got some punch and yet I don't get overly attached to them. If I flop a set, I know that I'm going to have to worry about an overset very rarely.

[Swift_Psycho]

I hesitate to call two bets cold with just A-J, but since they were sooooted and on the button (I think, right?), it isn't too bad. Since you said that you didn't notice that the board paired on the turn, I won't say much, but I don't like raising there either with just a top pair that probably isn't good and a nut flush draw that may not be good if you make it (and as it turns out, wasn't). Raising the flop was correct though.

[AK33]

Here's my 2 cents worth:I think all was good until the raise on the turn. I know that opened up a nut flush draw but it also paired the board. I typically don't like drawing to a flush when the board pairs, especially if it is on the flop. I would draw to it for a cheap price but then a slow play comes to mind so bells are always ringing in my head. I think if he had an over pair, all that reraising would have made him slow down. I don't play limit too much so maybe I'm mistaken, and I'm sure players will raise and reraise until they cap it with an overpair (not that this is a good play). Anyway I typically slow down with TPTK if I get raised on the flop, I'll usually call it down unless I'm really convinced that I'm beat, in which case I'll let it go.Let me know if you agree.

[ghoti7four]

I think you actually get in trouble on the flop. Preflop is fine particularly considering your position. Then given the board your raise on the flop is fine although if you are worried about an overpair it seems like you have to give some thought to whether you are beat. However you can justify your raise as a raise for information, so you are considering whether you are beat here. I would get worried when I am reraised on this flop. Immediately you are worried about an overpair, a set, or two pair like sixes and sevens (not as worried about this hand because of the preflop raise, but it is a small limit so as we know people do crazy things). I would have considered folding after the reraise even though you have the correct odds to call an overpair or two pair only because the pot is so large, (I believe--I eyeballed it so anyone correct me if I'm wrong) but you do not have correct odds to call a set. The turn is a scare card because although you have the nut flush you are again dominated by the fullhouse (or quads) if it is out there and there is also the draw to the straight to consider which I assume someone had at some point. I also think raising the turn is a bad play (but you said you didn't recognize that the board paired, which I understand because we all have those random moments of board blindness). Once your flush comes I guess your kind of stuck because that is the third nut hand (to a likely fullhouse and unlikely quads) and the pot is pretty enormous, but the raise here is bad too you aren't betting for value because you may be (probably are at this point) beat. And then of course he turns over jacks... I would have gotten away on the flop I think particularly since at that point you only had three to the flush. Theres a reason my friends and I call jacks the Slippy McB!tches.

[ghoti7four]

(a note) drawing to two outs on the flop (without the flush possibility) is 10.90:1 and I believe when you call the reraise you are getting 11.5:1

[holman3rd]

Roark_8 said:

So this is my first post in the strategy section, and in that spirit, I'm posting the worst hand I've played in the past week. I thought my limit game was coming along well until I did this last night:PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is Button with J:spade:, A:spade:. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. 3 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.Pretty sure just calling here is correct, right? Flop: (11 SB) J:club:, 6:spade:, 7:heart: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, MP3 calls.Put him on an overpair, reraised to make sure. it was about my 10th hand at the table, so I didn't have any info on him. Turn: (11.50 BB) 7:spade: (4 players)SB checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls.Here's where my "read" on his holding started to lose me money. With 4 people in, I figured it was +EV here to get value on my nut flush draw. If I was more confident in this concept, I cap, right? I think I was so concerned with that concept that the fact that the board paired didn't make enough of an impact on me. River: (20.50 BB) 2:spade: (3 players)SB checks, CO bets, CO calls.Final Pot: 28.50 BB He turned over JJ. And I have officially taken away his right to complain about Jacks for at least a month. I can't complain about a bad beat with my TPTK matching his PP, as 66 would have done the same and I've seen people raise 66 at these limits. The thing that I'm working on is trying to figure out when I should be capping on the river and when not. Obviously, with an aggressive better and the board pairing, even with the nut flush this wasn't the right move here. I know that SSHE says that extracting the most bets out of big pots isn't as important as fixing leaks in your game, but I still let it bother me when I don't get a couple of extra bets on the river when I have someone outkicked, etc. . I guess my post is to a)show that JJ pays off, b)to ask what is the criteria you use in order to keep firing with, let's say TPTK with a safe board, as opposed to slowing down? Do you always slow down when someon reraises you? Only for typically passive players? Do it more than not as it will pay off in the long run? Roark-8

Preflop: Re-Raise or fold. I hate cold-calling with AJs. If CO calls, I would initially put him on AK or AQ. If he caps, I put him on AK, at worse, but probably a big pair.Flop: FineTurn: Check/Call down from here, absent a read on the CO. If he's a strong, tight player, I fold here. Otherwise, call him down. IMO, you were too aggressive, especially since you viewed your flush draw as a live draw despite the board pairing.BTW...please don't post results intially going forward. It makes for better responses that are not results-oriented. (not that responses so far have been, but it helps to discuss a hand w/o knowing the results initially).

[KDawgCometh]

aight lets break this puppy down. PF fine, but marginal. generally calling two cold with AJ isn't the best idea, but your position is goodand there is another in the hand besides the PF raiser. Flop and turn, don't be afraid to cap with TPTK here, at least on the flop. Reads would help a lot here

[Roark_8]

Quote

Preflop: Re-Raise or fold. I hate cold-calling with AJs. If CO calls, I would initially put him on AK or AQ. If he caps, I put him on AK, at worse, but probably a big pair.Flop: FineTurn: Check/Call down from here, absent a read on the CO. If he's a strong, tight player, I fold here. Otherwise, call him down. IMO, you were too aggressive, especially since you viewed your flush draw as a live draw despite the board pairing.BTW...please don't post results intially going forward. It makes for better responses that are not results-oriented. (not that responses so far have been, but it helps to discuss a hand w/o knowing the results initially).

Thanks for the input. I guess I'm still not sure what to do with AJs and how strong to play it. From what I can tell AJo seems to be a raise if not raised, fold if raised type of hand, but there isn't much agreement on what to do with AJs. Perhaps call in MP raise in late? Not sure. Usually, I call down here when the board pairs, like you said, fold if I have stats of low PFA for him, maybe raise my nut flush on the river once if he's a maniac. But alas, the trouble you can get in when you dont' read the board correctly. Thanks again, I will not post the results in the future, although I was pretty sure on this hand that I had messed it up pretty badly, so I didn't think there was much point in keeping suspense.

[holman3rd]

Roark_8 said:

Quote

Preflop: Re-Raise or fold. I hate cold-calling with AJs. If CO calls, I would initially put him on AK or AQ. If he caps, I put him on AK, at worse, but probably a big pair.Flop: FineTurn: Check/Call down from here, absent a read on the CO. If he's a strong, tight player, I fold here. Otherwise, call him down. IMO, you were too aggressive, especially since you viewed your flush draw as a live draw despite the board pairing.BTW...please don't post results intially going forward. It makes for better responses that are not results-oriented. (not that responses so far have been, but it helps to discuss a hand w/o knowing the results initially).

Thanks for the input. I guess I'm still not sure what to do with AJs and how strong to play it. From what I can tell AJo seems to be a raise if not raised, fold if raised type of hand, but there isn't much agreement on what to do with AJs. Perhaps call in MP raise in late? Not sure. Usually, I call down here when the board pairs, like you said, fold if I have stats of low PFA for him, maybe raise my nut flush on the river once if he's a maniac. But alas, the trouble you can get in when you dont' read the board correctly. Thanks again, I will not post the results in the future, although I was pretty sure on this hand that I had messed it up pretty badly, so I didn't think there was much point in keeping suspense.

First, please don't take my suggestion to not post results as criticism. Far from it...just a friendly suggestion.As for playing AJs, there are no rules, like anything in poker. Examples of how I might play it:Late position, folded to me: Raise (duh)Late position, raised in front of me by TAG player: FoldLate position, raised in front of me by LAG player: Re-raiseEarly position, tight table: RaiseEarly position, passive table: limp.Again, these are not rules for me, just what I would probably do MOST of the time. Every decision depends on much more than the two cards in your hand, as you know.

[ghoti7four]

Kdawg said something like...

Quote

Flop and turn, don't be afraid to cap with TPTK here

I have a question... (I'm just now starting to really work on my limit game and don't play it as well as NL/PL). While I agree that typically you ought to be capping with TPTK don't you have to be worried about the fact that the raiser is also willing to cap it everytime particularly considering the suspicious board?

[JFarrell20]

Roark_8 said:

So this is my first post in the strategy section, and in that spirit, I'm posting the worst hand I've played in the past week. I thought my limit game was coming along well until I did this last night:PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is Button with J:spade:, A:spade:. MP2 posts a blind of $0.25. 3 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.Pretty sure just calling here is correct, right? Folding here is actually OK. Calling CAN be OK if you anticipate more callers and no re-raise. (which is what you got so it turned out OK.)Flop: (11 SB) J:club:, 6:spade:, 7:heart: (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls, MP3 calls.Put him on an overpair, reraised to make sure. it was about my 10th hand at the table, so I didn't have any info on him. I don't care for a raise here. Smooth call is fine. Only advantage of raising is to narrow the field which doesn't seem to have worked. When you get 3-bet you know you are beat.Turn: (11.50 BB) 7:spade: (4 players)SB checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB calls.Why the F are you raising again? The board paired which is scary. You do have the nut flush draw, however. In this case you don't want to narrow the field. You want to hit your flush in a multi-way pot.Here's where my "read" on his holding started to lose me money. With 4 people in, I figured it was +EV here to get value on my nut flush draw. If I was more confident in this concept, I cap, right? I think I was so concerned with that concept that the fact that the board paired didn't make enough of an impact on me. River: (20.50 BB) 2:spade: (3 players)SB checks, CO bets, CO calls.Betting out here is fine with the nut flush because you can't assume he has a boat. But when he raises you should merely call. Not re-raise. His preflop and post flop play tells me he's got something better than Trips or a Flush.Final Pot: 28.50 BB He turned over JJ. And I have officially taken away his right to complain about Jacks for at least a month. I can't complain about a bad beat with my TPTK matching his PP, as 66 would have done the same and I've seen people raise 66 at these limits. The thing that I'm working on is trying to figure out when I should be capping on the river and when not. Obviously, with an aggressive better and the board pairing, even with the nut flush this wasn't the right move here. I know that SSHE says that extracting the most bets out of big pots isn't as important as fixing leaks in your game, but I still let it bother me when I don't get a couple of extra bets on the river when I have someone outkicked, etc. . I guess my post is to a)show that JJ pays off, b)to ask what is the criteria you use in order to keep firing with, let's say TPTK with a safe board, as opposed to slowing down? Do you always slow down when someon reraises you? Only for typically passive players? Do it more than not as it will pay off in the long run? Roark-8

[Roark_8]

Quote

I have a question... (I'm just now starting to really work on my limit game and don't play it as well as NL/PL). While I agree that typically you ought to be capping with TPTK don't you have to be worried about the fact that the raiser is also willing to cap it everytime particularly considering the suspicious board?

I asked this question in the OP, basically wondering what people's most important criteria was for slowing down vs. capping with TPTK. Will you cap with only a "facing a maniac" read? I typically slow down with only TPTK and no redraws if I'm reraised even with a non scary board. Call me weak if you will (PFA only like 1.7 currently), but too often will a stupid weird 2 pair beat me. I'll grumpily just call it down.

[KDawgCometh]

My reason for possibly capping the flop is that Many people at lower limits will raise from the CO with hands you dominate like QJ or KJ. The fact that we have TPTK with a top two redraw and a nutflush backdoor draw helps, but I have been known to be a pretty aggressive player and can sometimes be a little indignant with hands. cest la vie

[RISEorFall]

ghoti7four said:

(a note) drawing to two outs on the flop (without the flush possibility) is 10.90:1 and I believe when you call the reraise you are getting 11.5:1

How did you get 2 outs here? Without the nut flush backdoor draw he has...5 outs. Unless the overpair he puts his opponent on is Aces. He's gotta be putting his opponent on queens or kings here...if he puts the guy on aces, he should never have called to see a flop. I would assume (although incorrectly) that I would have 5 outs here. 2 Jacks and 3 Aces. that should change the odds a bit. Only mistake I see in this is not noticing when the board paired, and I wouldn't be reraising the turn with just a draw, as you are behind and the one guy you want to fold wont. if you hit some of your outs, you should beat everyone still in the hand, and you'll get extra bets on the river by keeping them in.

[ghoti7four]

oops! you're right... I think my day job is getting to me (only about the outs though I still disagree with the hand).