How Would You Bet The Turn?

[Stuples 0]

Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t20/t407 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: t3975UTG+1: t1485Hero: t1410CO: t1800Button: t1840SB: t1430BB: t1560Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is MP1 with :D UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t40, Hero calls t40 , 2 folds, SB calls t20, BB checks.Flop: (t160, 4 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t115, Hero raises to t400, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t285.Turn: (t960, 2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t200...At the time I was thinking he is up and ready for folding but in hindsight he must have been on a draw? Should I have bet closer to half pot on the turn? Perhaps I should because if he called my raise what’s to say he won’t call a half pot bet. So whats the maximum I can get away with betting here without him folding? I'll post the results later and his comments which I thought were odd. Infact I think the reason why I am posting this is because of what he said.

[Whiskey16 1]

At the time I was thinking he is up and ready for folding but in hindsight he must have been on a draw? Should I have bet closer to half pot on the turn? Perhaps I should because if he called my raise what’s to say he won’t call a half pot bet. So whats the maximum I can get away with betting here without him folding? I'll post the results later and his comments which I thought were odd. Infact I think the reason why I am posting this is because of what he said.

Bet the pot. By only betting 200 on the turn, you're giving him 6:1 to call. You've got 1/3 of your stack already in the middle. You want to get paid on a big hand, but not let him draw cheaply. In this case, better 1/2 to 2/3 already commits you to the pot, so I'd een consider betting 2/3 or all in, knowing that you're committed. If you push, you're likely getting called by a worse jack or a full house, based on the way it's played. But you need to take that gamble to double up, and people will call all-in here with a flush draw or straight draw. I want to make sure they pay at least 2.5-1 or 3-1 on a flush draw on the river.

[Granit 0]

Full Tilt PokerNo Limit Holdem TournamentBlinds: t20/t407 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: t3975UTG+1: t1485Hero: t1410CO: t1800Button: t1840SB: t1430BB: t1560Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is MP1 with :D UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t40, Hero calls t40 , 2 folds, SB calls t20, BB checks.Flop: (t160, 4 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets t115, Hero raises to t400, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t285.Turn: (t960, 2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t200...At the time I was thinking he is up and ready for folding but in hindsight he must have been on a draw? Should I have bet closer to half pot on the turn? Perhaps I should because if he called my raise what’s to say he won’t call a half pot bet. So whats the maximum I can get away with betting here without him folding? I'll post the results later and his comments which I thought were odd. Infact I think the reason why I am posting this is because of what he said.

How come you didn't raise it preflop? I guess it is a question of individual strategy but I personally wouldn't limp this with a limp from UTG+1...EDIT: I'm also with whiskey, bet pot to get rid of the draws...

[simo_8ball 1]

I prefer making it 140 preflop. The limp is a little weak.Flop is good.You have 970 left on the turn, and you almost certainly have the best hand. I'm leaning towards 500 here and putting the rest in on the river. I believe that gets the most from weaker made hands and allows draws to make mistakes, but a shove would be fine as well.Your 200 bet priced in any draws.

[Granit 0]

I prefer making it 140 preflop. The limp is a little weak.Flop is good.You have 970 left on the turn, and you almost certainly have the best hand. I'm leaning towards 500 here and putting the rest in on the river. I believe that gets the most from weaker made hands and allows draws to make mistakes, but a shove would be fine as well.Your 200 bet priced in any draws.

[Stuples 0]

I prefer making it 140 preflop.

Yeah I agree. It should have been raised to 3~4xBBBut why did he call my raise on the flop, didnt he have just 2:1 pot odds?? Do implied odds really make up the difference when I have 970 left.

[Granit 0]

Yeah I agree. It should have been raised to 3~4xBBBut why did he call my raise on the flop, didnt he have just 2:1 pot odds?? Do implied odds really make up the difference when I have 970 left.

Well, he made a bet before you did, and you raised him like three times his bet. If he is on a draw, he had enough money in the pot to call.I would have played this hand a lot more agressive than you. Raise preflop, bigger raise flop, all-in turn, just because (even though I haven't got any reads) I think he is just on a draw. If he has AJ you get the split pot.Since you didn't raise preflop he could have any two, right?That means that you might be up against a turned full house and you've only got the three aces as outs. If that was the case, I understand why you now agree with the "preflop raise line"..

[simo_8ball 1]

He called 285 on the flop, and the pot was 675. If he hits, he will need to make another ~600 to have the ~4.5:1 implied odds he needs to hit if he is on a primary draw (OESD/FD). Even factoring in the added value of occasionally getting a free river card your flop raise priced him out. I don't see him winning another 600 on average if he hits.

[Stuples 0]

Thanks guys for the quick response and more importantly, the spot on advice. Much appreciated!

[David_Nicoson 1]

Yeah I agree. It should have been raised to 3~4xBBBut why did he call my raise on the flop, didnt he have just 2:1 pot odds?? Do implied odds really make up the difference when I have 970 left.

It's 2.3:1. He can very easily have a flush draw plus a little something (e.g., an over or two, a straight draw, or a pair) that he figures is 3:2 or so.

[DonkSlayer 1]

If we're sure he's drawing, sure sure, then we bet the pot/push or check behind and hope he pairs a card instead of making his draw.To all: If we have any chips left in front of us, can we find a fold if the villain open-pushes a diamond river (that ain't an A?)

[simo_8ball 1]

To all: If we have any chips left in front of us, can we find a fold if the villain open-pushes a diamond river (that ain't an A?)I don't think I fold this any way I play it. If I shove the turn I'm not folding, if I check the turn then I'm doing it so he might bluff the river, so I'm not folding. I don't think I fold the river if I bet 500 on the turn. I've got 470 left and the pot is 2430.If we're sure he's drawing, sure sure, then we bet the pot/push or check behind and hope he pairs a card instead of making his draw.That's why I prefer the 1/2 pot bet. It encourages hands like A8 and TT to call, while pricing out draws as well.

[Whiskey16 1]

To all: If we have any chips left in front of us, can we find a fold if the villain open-pushes a diamond river (that ain't an A?)I don't think I fold this any way I play it. If I shove the turn I'm not folding, if I check the turn then I'm doing it so he might bluff the river, so I'm not folding. I don't think I fold the river if I bet 500 on the turn. I've got 470 left and the pot is 2430.If we're sure he's drawing, sure sure, then we bet the pot/push or check behind and hope he pairs a card instead of making his draw.That's why I prefer the 1/2 pot bet. It encourages hands like A8 and TT to call, while pricing out draws as well.

If we 1/2 pot the turn, and a non-A diamond falls on the river, can we really fold with 2/3 of our chips invested in this pot?If we bet 1/2 the pot, we're inviting him in at 3-1, which isn't good enough for the flush draw, and hoping he doesn't hit. Betting anything less is giving him the right price to call. Even if he hits, I think I make the crying call on the river.

[bigkeenanh 0]

But why did he call my raise on the flop, didnt he have just 2:1 pot odds??

Does he even know what pot odds mean?Think hands like this need the stakes posted. If this is $1 or something, the flop call could be AdxThere's also possibilty for big draws out there. T7 , T9 , A8 , etc etc

[simo_8ball 1]

Think hands like this need the stakes posted

The top of the thread says:"How Would You Bet The Turn?, Early in a $20+2 10 man SnG"

[bigkeenanh 0]

The top of the thread says:"How Would You Bet The Turn?, Early in a $20+2 10 man SnG"

Hahaha

[David_Nicoson 1]

You have 970 left on the turn, and you almost certainly have the best hand. I'm leaning towards 500 here and putting the rest in on the river. I believe that gets the most from weaker made hands and allows draws to make mistakes, but a shove would be fine as well.

A draw wouldn't be making much of a mistake to call 1/2 pot. If we count our 500 going in on the river as in your line, he's getting nearly 4:1 with implied odds.

[simo_8ball 1]

Oh, and props to Stuples whose first post is a converted hand in strat - and he didn't post results. The only thing wrong is that this should be in 'tournament', instead of 'no limit'.

A draw wouldn't be making much of a mistake to call 1/2 pot. If we count our 500 going in on the river as in your line, he's getting nearly 4:1 with implied odds.

It's close, but if we shove we lose a lot of potential value from non-draw hands we are beating.

[David_Nicoson 1]

It's close, but if we shove we lose a lot of potential value from non-draw hands we are beating.

Agreed. Sizing this bet correctly has a lot to do with putting the villain on a hand. A push is probably better against a draw, imho. He can't pay us on the river if he misses.

[Granit 0]

Agreed. Sizing this bet correctly has a lot to do with putting the villain on a hand. A push is probably better against a draw, imho. He can't pay us on the river if he misses.

But it is impossible to put our enemy on a hand here, right? Like we said before, he should have raised it preflop.OK, his bet is small enough for a draw to call. But given the question, "how would you bet the turn?", I would say all-in since the draw isn't filled yet.

[delasoul 0]

This is a 10 man sitngo... You pushed all your chips in on the turn. With how aggressive the blinds reach and your hand don't bet half the pot or even the pot. Push all your chips and try to double up. Most donkey's in these format call hoping to hit there hand. If you get taken out then you buy into another one but this is clearly a push on the turn. Take the pot now.No other hand beats you other than a boat here. Any draw you have him pay with one card left and if he calls with a TpWk then he's pretty much drawing close to dead.Also (imho) Aj suited is hand you shouldn't really be playing that early in a sitngo. You want to play super tight. Still i think it was smart to just limp in with AJ. The reason being is with the chip stacks if you 3 times bet and someone comes over the top for you, you are almost certain to call with your hand being very vulnberable to higher overcards. Typically AK, AQ and any pocket pair gets aggressive here since you are early in position

[simo_8ball 1]

This is a 10 man sitngo... You pushed all your chips in on the turn. With how aggressive the blinds reach and your hand don't bet half the pot or even the pot. Push all your chips and try to double up. Most donkey's in these format call hoping to hit there hand. If you get taken out then you buy into another one but this is clearly a push on the turn. Take the pot now.No other hand beats you other than a boat here. Any draw you have him pay with one card left and if he calls with a TpWk then he's pretty much drawing close to dead.

If you shove he is folding almost all of his hands. I want to try and get as much value from weaker hands as possible. That is achieved with a smaller bet IMO.

[delasoul 0]

If you shove he is folding almost all of his hands. I want to try and get as much value from weaker hands as possible. That is achieved with a smaller bet IMO.

I totally understand that you are trying to get max value here but I think sitngo are played in a totally different way then a cash game no limit. You should take the pot there and not allow him the opporunity out draw you. If he has a hand he will call you. He has enough chips to cover you. Mind you the reasoning for me to push here is that there is a straight draw and a flush draw still out there. If it was a total rainbow flop and you turned trips then I can see the motive with your half the pot or pot size bet.(IMO)I wouldn't want to give him the opportunity to call me and take me out. Also, UTG is chip leader. He can call with a variety of hands and draws and his power of the table is huge if he hits his hand. That's another reason why i wouldn't concern myself with how much value I can get from this hand. Don't give chip leader an opportunity to take control of the table by allowing him to call for a cheap price because you were worried about how much you can make of it. Take what you can get and be one of the chip leaders and use your chip stack to pick on the other little guys.

[simo_8ball 1]

You're playing against UTG+1, not UTG. UTG+1 has about the same stack as us.I understand the arguments for shoving, but I think it is easily possible for villain to be drawing dead (or to 2 outs). If I know he is on a primary draw I shove, but if he is on A8, TT, etc betting smaller is far, far better. Balancing the two scenarios out I like a value bet.

[delasoul 0]

You're playing against UTG+1, not UTG. UTG+1 has about the same stack as us.I understand the arguments for shoving, but I think it is easily possible for villain to be drawing dead (or to 2 outs). If I know he is on a primary draw I shove, but if he is on A8, TT, etc betting smaller is far, far better. Balancing the two scenarios out I like a value bet.

Hey thanks for pointing that out. I think if you have a read on your player that definitley that is the way to maximize your hand and would play that way.Let's say we make a pot size bet and he calls and a danger card comes on the river and he bets into us or goes all-in. Would you make the call here? The only reason I choose to push on the turn here is to avoid having to make that difficult decision on the river if a scared card does take place. If I'm beat then in reality it's the cards that beat me and not my play.I'd like to have my oppenent be the one making difficult decisions and not I, but if this guy feels that the better has a weaker hand then by all means maximize your hand and place your bet.