19 replies to this topic

[rusmac31]

Party Poker...$25NL...6 handed table...blinds .25/.10I'm dealt 88 on the button...3 limpers...I raise to $1...sb call and bb call...flopJcQsQhsb checks...bb bets .25..I call...sb folds (heads up now)turn9hbb bets $1...I raise to $3...he re-raises to $6...I call (now I'm pretty sure he has a Q, probably shouldn't have called the re-raise)river8h ( i have a boat, 8's over Q's)bb bets $5...I re-raise to $10...bb calls $5.Would you've played this differently? I'll post the result later.

[Swift_Psycho]

I probably let it go when the guy bets $1 on the turn. Trying to hit a 22-1 shot on the river when even hitting that 8 might not make your hand good is not usually a smart move. I'd like to know what your thought process was when you raised on the turn.With that said, once you hit on the river, I think you played it fine. I might have raised more, but you did okay.Edit: Oh yeah, and just call pre-flop, no raise.

[ghoti7four]

yes, I would have limped with the eights--perhaps called the flop because its kind of what you are looking for (but not really), folded for sure on the turn... and wet myself on the river.

[DwayneWayne]

PF: I like to over bet the pot, maybe a raise of $1.50-$2.00. Flop: FineTurn: Why raise the Turn? $2 isn’t getting off the hand if he has a J. Once he re-raised you to 6 you can fold that every time.River: Fine

[ghoti7four]

However, I would also like to know what you were thinking with the raise... I like to see agressive play, but you have to be afraid you are badly beaten here.

[creepy20]

I have to agree with some of the rest..no raise PF...just limp...you are looking to hit trips and nothing else. I wouldn't of raised the turn..like another poster said...22-1 . so you get a lucky river and wet yourself...you played the hand fine on the river..ofcourse if he didn't win the hand..which I'm assuming he didn't then I ( if I were the guy you beat ) would probably have whipped it out and peed all over the computer and then I would find out where you lived and send you a nice pile of crap in a bag. I say assuming you won because he could of had J 10 suited for the runner runner straight flush but I doubt it since he just called the river and didn't raise back...but that would be sweet if he did..and then you just peed all over yourself for nothing.PS: I really wouldn't send you a bag full of crap....I would just be upset :x

[Swift_Psycho]

creepy20 said:

I have to agree with some of the rest..no raise PF...just limp...you are looking to hit trips and nothing else.  I wouldn't of raised the turn..like another poster said...22-1 .  so you get a lucky river and wet yourself...you played the hand fine on the river..ofcourse if he didn't win the hand..which I'm assuming he didn't then I ( if I were the guy you beat ) would probably have whipped it out and peed all over the computer and then I would find out where you lived and send you a nice pile of crap in a bag.   I say assuming you won because he could of had J 10 suited for the runner runner straight flush   but I doubt it since he just called the river and didn't raise back...but that would be sweet if he did..and then you just peed all over yourself for nothing.PS:  I really wouldn't send you a bag full of crap....I would just be upset  :x

Hahahahahaha. Great post. I just peed all over myself laughing at it.

[rusmac31]

Thanks for the responses...Preflop: I raised preflop (remember it's 6 handed) because there were 3 limpers and I wanted to thin the field to a heads up match up and I had position...you could probably argue that I should've limped in (it definitely would've saved me some mony on this hand)...I raise 4x the blind and get 2 callersPostflop: sb checks...bb bets .25 i call sb folds...at this point I'm thinking that the bb has an Ax or maybe he had the J so I'm thinking my 8's might still be good and for .25 I'll call.Turn: the 9h hits putting 2 hearts on the board...he leads out for $1 (about 1/4 the pot)...I figured that this bet meant either he had a J or he had Ax of hearts and wanted to see if he could draw cheaply. Sensing weakness, I raised to $3 in order to represent the Q. When he re-raises me to $5, alarm bells start to go off that shit...he has a Q and I'm probably way behind...however, I call so as not to let him think that a re-raise will move me off my hand. My plan on the river was to fold to any bet knowing I was probably beat.River: the 8h hits giving me a boat 8's over Q's...I believe one poster had it right as he so eloquently said, " I about peed my pants" thinking I was about to rake a big pot. He leads out for $5, now I'm pretty sure he has a Q and he probably thinks I'm bluffing so I re-raise him to $10 hoping he would call me. He thinks for about 2 seconds, calls and turns over QJ.Son of a bitch!Ways I could've minimized my losses:1. Don't raise preflop with 8's...this definitely would've saved me as I would've easily let the hand go after the flop with QQJ showing. However, I think pocket 8's with position is ok to raise with 2 limpers.2. I should've re-raised postflop when the BB bet .25...probably bet the pot (at the time it was $3)...he definitely would've called or re-raised which would've allowed me to either slow down or fold thinking that I'm already way behindWhat do you guys think?

[creepy20]

hahahahaaa...sorry to laugh dude. I like your analysis though, I guess I didn't put him on QJ either because he didn't raise the river..I guess your reraise was putting him all in and thats why we didn't see a reraise after that. What a play by the other guy though....spinning the web. Anyways,....ways you could of minimized your loses : 1. I know I said limp before but you said you were short handed with two limpers...I guess if you were playing aggressive and wanted that image then you could raise..I still don't like to raise low PP..I like to see a flop for cheap...they have no value unless you hit trips...as you can see..they got you in a lot of trouble.2. ways to save money on the flop. If you felt he was weak then you should of raised to feel him out. He would of probably put you on a queen as well and reraised thinking that you probably thought your trips were good or smooth called...that should of sent off bells right there that you are probably getting trapped.3. you waited here to raise with a scary board and then got reraised...I guess you were working on your image and didn't want to come off as somebody who folds when he gets played back at. So by calling this bet when you were probably90% sure you were a huge dog you figured that you would be able to make up the money because of a good table image. I don't think its a horrible idea..but then again I'm not that great of a player.4. The river...there is no way to save money here...I guess you could of just called and not raised...maybe something in the back of your mind told you he had a full and was trapping you big time with QJ, but you were probably so happy that you hit the 8 on the river that you didn't think about that...also since your pants were soaked with pee you proabably weren't in the right state of mind ...hand like this..hitting your full on the river..I'd lose my stack everytime too.Just a side note and question....note- i think I read somewhere that 90% of all your decisions should be made on the flop. That is the crucial mistake you made in this hand...that just my opinion though.What kind of raises do you make with most of your hands? are they all around 1.00 (4X big blind ) with every raise you make? because most people with anykind of a hand are going to call that raise in a short handed game. ( I know that I would ) So why even raise with that hand. I say wait for your solid hands here and put in a good raise...and keep all your raises about the same no matter what you raise with. Just my thoughts once again. Anyways, I enjoyed looking at this hand and I had something similar come up last night and thanks to looking at this hand I saved myself some money I think...or I got bluffed out..either way I've learned something..thanks

[holman3rd]

rusmac31 said:

Party Poker...$25NL...6 handed table...blinds .25/.10I'm dealt 88 on the button...3 limpers...I raise to $1...sb call and bb call...flopJcQsQhsb checks...bb bets .25..I call...sb folds (heads up now)turn9hbb bets $1...I raise to $3...he re-raises to $6...I call (now I'm pretty sure he has a Q, probably shouldn't have called the re-raise)river8h ( i have a boat, 8's over Q's)bb bets $5...I re-raise to $10...bb calls $5.Would you've played this differently? I'll post the result later.

Yes, and here's how (as usally, absent a read on this player).Preflop is fine, although I would have limped.Flop: I raise size of pot to see where I'm at.That said, you called, sooooo...Turn: I fold to his lead bet. He's obviously not worried about your calling his meager flop bet (which might indicate that you are trying to trap). He likes his hand, is not worried about you trapping him, and therefore you are likely way behind.River: I never would have gotten that far, but raise is fine.

[rusmac31]

I usually raise between 4x - 6x the blind with 10's or better...I'll raise A10, AJ, AQ, AK with no raises before me.Sometimes I'll raise with low-mid suited connectors if I have position.If I just want to build the pot, I'll raise 2x or 3x the blind.Alot of it depends on my perception of the other players but I don't slow play anything...unless I'm 90% sure I'll have the best hand at the end and/or I'm playing against a maniac that raises everytime someone shows weakness.

[holman3rd]

rusmac31 said:

I usually raise between 4x - 6x the blind with 10's or better...I'll raise A10, AJ, AQ, AK with no raises before me.Sometimes I'll raise with low-mid suited connectors if I have position.If I just want to build the pot, I'll raise 2x or 3x the blind.Alot of it depends on my perception of the other players but I don't slow play anything...unless I'm 90% sure I'll have the best hand at the end and/or I'm playing against a maniac that raises everytime someone shows weakness.

Rus-You probably already know this, and you did say that you "usually" raise like that. But just a word of caution to those that might take your comments as black & white rules. Betting patterns like that are very easy to read and exploit. I advocate raising the same amount everytime I raise. I completely understand the value is mixing up your raises, but IMO it makes you harder to read when your preflop raises are all the same (of course, I mix up what hands I raise with depending on position, opponents, etc.).

[creepy20]

I think holman hit the nail on the head. Preflop raising I believe should all be the same..it makes it extremely difficult to read....

[Petoria]

The raise on the turn is probably the 2nd biggest mistake, next to the call of the reraise. I'm not going to get into it too much, because it happens. What happened is that you didn't put your opponent on a hand, then you didn't go with your read. I'll let that go, but when you raise, HAVE A PURPOSE. Always know what you're raise could do. You need to know what kind of hand you're trying to push him off, and his response will tell you what his hand is.If this concept has been discussed sry for reiterating.

[rusmac31]

Holman, I appreciate the input...yeah i usually try to raise preflop with the standard 4x blind regardless of the hand...i say usually because sometimes I'll overbet with AA or KK or sometimes I'll overbet with 45s...again alot of it depends on my perception of the table, position, etc...I agree that mixing up your betting pattern is important...I forgot who posted it but I'm glad that somebody had a similiar hand and minimized their losses...that's what I enjoy about this forum...always opportunities to improve your game!Thanks again for all the input

[augmented]

i really hate all this limping that happens around here. grow a pair, you have a pair. raise. raise big, you have the best hand. i hate it when people limp and hope to catch a set. i can see people doing this with like 22-66, but COME ON. you have a good hand. raise and reraise. on the flop, i see it as a raise or fold situation. if you think you have the best hand, raise it up. if you don't, fold and stop chasing a stupid 2 outer. the problem is not your bad read on the flop, the problem is the way you played your read. if you raise the flop, and he calls or comes back over the top, you know you are screwed, so you can give it up barring running 8's. if you fold, you have saved hella dollars, and QQJ is a HORRIBLE flop for a hand like 88. turn: you shouldnt have been in on the turn.same with the river. you got your just desserts.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Let me preface everything I'm about to say by saying I'm not someone who flames people. I'm just expressing my opinion. It's not personal, and feel free to disagree with me or ignore me.I think there were two very costly mistakes in this hand. The first is raising preflop. Like I've said before in another post, I think people raising small pocket pairs (less than JJ or TT) in NLH is one of the biggest leaks you can have. All it does is improve your fold equity when you're trying to get money in the pot when you have a set. If you raise preflop and hit your set, you're MUCH less likely to get paid off by TPTK... which is EXACTLY the hand you want paying you off.Secondly... why on earth would you call on the flop? A minimum bet out of position in a paired board? You had to have at least put him on a jack... which is ahead of 88, and you're 22:1 to improve if you think you're behind. With all the people seeing the flop... you've GOT to think someone has a queen or at least a jack. Just because they weren't betting/raising definitely doesn't mean they aren't out there.I would have limped preflop and folded on the flop. That would have cost $.25, and if you flopped QJ8... you're going to make a lot of money.

[Trono]

Or you could flop QJ8 and still lose a bit of money.http://fullcontactpo...8017&highlight=

[rusmac31]

I think you could make a valid argument either way regarding raising pockets 8's before the flop on a short handed table with 2 limpers.I think raising is the more aggresive play. And I like to be more aggressive short handed with medium pocket pairs as otherwise the only value they have is if you hit your set.However, I'm not saying that limping is wrong either...just different.Based on everyone's advice, I should've taken 1 of the 2 paths:1. Raise preflop, raise the minimum bet on the flop and fold to a re-raise or check/fold on the turn if he calls my raise on the flop. That would've only cost me $2-$32. limp pre-flop, fold on the flop to 3 overcards and a paired board. That would've cost me $.25.Of the 2, I probably would choose option #1 just because I generally like to be the aggressor (again, not criticizing those who would limp, just different)But I definitely played it horribly after the flop...no doubt about that.

[Naismith]

As a general rule, most players that weak lead in a NL cash game *that I have played against* are betting a draw. Had I been in this situation, I would've raised him on the flop and if he went back over the top, I would've gotten away from it. I might've called for the same reason you called the turn, but maybe not if I didn't give them credit for paying attention to things like that.Also, my first note on most players has to do with the weak lead. "Weak leads with big hands" or "weak leads with draws". A lot of the money I make is from people weak leading, so I pay attention to it. Mark that guy down for weak leading powerful hands and next time you won't make the same mistake. :)Peace,Jay