28 replies to this topic

[Mojolang]

This should provide good discourse. My question to you is this: Now that Daniel at under age 31 has:Become WPT player of the year (barring an isane rush from someone else)Become CP POYHellmuth POYWSOP POYPlays in 4k/8kand WPT leading money winnerHas he secured himself as the best poker player ever? Some could lay claim to Doyle Brunson, Phil Ivey? Chip Reese? but considering the versatility and youth?I think he secured himself in that spot, but I would be interested to hear disagreementBe interesting to hear Daniel's thoughts on this one.JoePS hope to see some of you in the caribbean,

[Boothy]

I think it makes him the best player around at the moment, but ever? That's an impossible claim to make. It's like compairing football teams of different eras. You can't do it.

[wellsie316]

Daniel is my favorite player and has had an absolutely incredible year. It might not be awile till we see someone duplicate the kind of success Daniel has had in the biggest tounraments. However, saying he is the best player ever goes way too far, at least right now. Doyle and Chan have 9 WSOP bracelets a piece, including 2 back to back Main event titles (each also have a 2nd) and they have been amongst the top cash game players in the world for a very long time. Ivey hasn't had the kind of tournament success Daniel has had recently partly because he has been so focused on his side game play. DN has certainly had a remarkable career up to this point in his life and, an unbelievable 2004 year, but does that push him in front of Chan, Brunson, Ungar etc.? I would say in 10 or 20 years let's look at Daniel's resume and then make a judgment.

[Army Eye]

No way this makes him the best ever. Daniel will get a good laugh from this though.

[LeeDanger]

Daniel's had a great 21st century but to state that it makes him the best ever is ridiculous (no offense).

[Mojolang]

If that is ridiculous, I would be more than happy to hear your counter-argument.Daniel has said in posts that he considers himself a "Poker Player" Not a cash game player or a tournament player, but one who exceeds at both. Let's look at a few examples in his eschelon.Gus HansenHoward LedererChau GiangJennifer HarmanBarry GreensteinDoyle BrunsonPhil IveyJohn HenniganI think they are the Major contenders, along with Daniel.Ok, so what are the major accomplishments of each? Gus Has 3 WPT trophies and is a great high stakes player. Ok, that's cool. Lederer has been excelling at the higherst games on the planet since the early to mid 90s if I am not mistaken and has 2 WPT trophies and 2 bracelets I believe. Not bad either. Chau has at 3 or 4 bracelets and is one of the favorites in the biggest games in the world. Harman is an incredible high stakes player herself and has 2 bracelets to her credit, one of which is the 2-7NL. Greenstein also a WPT winner and has a 2-7 bracelet and winner of numerous other awards. Ivey has 5 bracelets and he isn't 30 and is a tourney megastar and cash game player too. Brunson is the father of poker with 9 bracelets and has played in the biggest games in teh world since the 70s. Hennigan is a USPC winner and multiple bracelet winner if I am not mistaken and plays huge cash games.Ok, so, I think the best arguments can be made for Ivey and Brunson. Brunson is an old-schooler so I would throw him out right off, or compare him to Daniel up to 31. Well, he didn't have the resources available to him at the time that Daniel did so it is a very hard comparison. As for Ivey, well he is the youngest ever bracelet winner, and has 5 to his name and a 4 time WPT finalist. Daniel only has 3 bracelets. I am guessing if Daniel and Phil played heads up or corssbooked HORSE plus triple draw NL and PL and Omaha and 2-7 NL, Ivey would be the favorite as one of Ivey's biggest assets is his overall concentration, discipline, emotional control and endurance. He says he plays marathon sessions often. I have also heard Ivey is a monster Stud player which would put Daniel as a dog on the stud rounds. Daniel however I believe is a favorite on the O H/L rounds and the triple draw stuff. This however is pure conjecture.I still think that Daniel's accomplishments this year along with the fact that he is playing and winning in the biggest games in the world put him at the top. A similar comparison would be that of Stu Ungar. Stu floundered in cash games because he lacked the interest to maintain, but when Stuey was on in NLHE tournies, he was unbeatable. This is not to say Daniel cannot excel at cash games, quite the opposite. What I am saying though is that in high pressure situations, or when both players are playing their A-game, in tournies as well as cash games, I think Daniel is the favorite.Still interested in hearing descentJoe

[KKsuited]

Like one guy said, he is the best right now, but ever, no way.I like Daniel and don't want to offend him, but:You're only talking about what Daniel has done recently. What about Daniel last year or the year before? What about Daniels own admission of going broke a few years ago?I think Daniel can be one of the best ever if he stays focussed. I would say Daniel is better than any of the younger players you named, but ever? Come on.You realize it's been estimated that Doyle has made over a $100 million player poker. Stu Unger dominated a NL table like no one had ever seen. There are other old schoolers out there who were great players as well.I think naming Daniel the best ever this earlier would be disrepecting many of the players who have come and gone. Why don't we just call Daniel "one of the best ever."

[Mojolang]

Quote

You're only talking about what Daniel has done recently. What about Daniel last year or the year before? What about Daniels own admission of going broke a few years ago?  

Ok, well before age 31 he has one all of the aforementioned titles. No one has done that EVER. In fact, no one has all of those titles period.

Quote

You realize it's been estimated that Doyle has made over a $100 million player poker.

By who? This number seems ridiculously inflated to me.

Quote

Stu Unger dominated a NL table like no one had ever seen. There are other old schoolers out there who were great players as well.  

stuey sucked it in cash gamesI am still interested in hearing someone else named.Joe

[KKsuited]

Well, Todd Brunson said he took Andy Beal for over $12m.Ask Daniel how much money he thinks Doyle has made playing poker.

[Mojolang]

Phil Hellmuth wrote a colum once called "Who da man in poker, Ted or Chris?" Where he compared the success of the then WSOP champ chris ferguson with the cash game maestro of the time, Ted Forrest. I think what makes Daniel's success so impressive is that he dominates tournies and he is fiercely competitive in cash games. The same cannot be said of Todd Brunson. Furthermore, that figure is way off. If you followed the Brunson/Beal thing, it was obvious beal made a good bank last time he was in vegas.

[monsterrain]

You cant say that figure is way off because you dont know. And while Beal may have won on his last trip, to the best of public knowledge he certainly isn't up overall, by a large margain.On the topic of daniel being the first ever to be WSOP POY, Cardplayer POY, WPT POY, Hellmuth POY, and alltime leading WPT money winner.....theses awards and tournaments have only been around for the last few years. WSOP and Hellmuth's POY awards are in their first year, maybe second in Hellmuth's case im not sure.....and the WPT is in their third year of existence. In other words, this is a completely different era in poker than ever before. Comparing the success's tournament wise of players now compared to players from the last century is like comparing apples to oranges. There are more 10k buy in events per year now than there were in the 1980's combined if i am not mistaken. Daniel had the best year tournament wise of anyone this year, but who knows who had the best year overall money wise....some have said that Ivey has made a lot more than 4 million this year playing cash games. According to Barry Greenstein, Daniel consistently wins at the 1k-2k level, but only on a limited side game schedule. Barry also says that Ivey is the only tournament player to graduate succesfully to the biggest cash games and win... i don't know for a fact if Ivey is playing in a bigger game consistently than Daniel, but im digressing here.....It is impossible to compare players from this era to older players. Among their peers, Doyle and Chip are widely thought of as the best in the world over the years.If Doyle was 30 right now instead of 70, could he have won all of these awards like Daniel has? Who knows, but id be willing to bet he could. Before this poker boom, most of the top players in the world made their living solely from cash games, saying tournaments were not worth their time.I'm going to say that the best player ever might very well be a guy we have never heard of. If the best player ever is the guy who made the most money, well that is something we will never know. Daniel has certainly taken full advantage of this new boom, and he is most certainly one of the best players right now. But you can not say he is the best ever period. 30 years from now, if he continues to evolve and get better and keep winning, maybe he will be. Doyle and Chip were some of the top consistent winners at the biggest games in the world for decades...and Doyle has 9 bracelets. If I had to choose someone to be the best ever, I'd probably go with the guy who's peers think is the best ever, and that's Doyle.

[sxz18]

Daniel is successful...however there are people like Chip Reese than nobody really knows much about except they play high stakes. Chip Reese is the youngest inductee into the Hall of Fame, something Daniel is not yet a part of, and he is praised by all his peers. He plays with the best players in the world everyday and he consistenly wins...how crazy is that? I think Daniel is a great player, but people like Chip Reese are definetely better than him at this point in time. Even Daniel said he respects Reese and "he has reads that are just scary".

[Mojolang]

good point.Joe

[cmills]

sorry this reply took forever, i had to finish cleaning the vomit off of my lap from reading your original post.How has Daniel's tournament year been? Fantastic.All Time WPT money winner -- yahoo, its been goin all of three years. (Raymer is the all time WSOP money winner, is he the greatest WSOP player of all time? correct me if i'm wrong).WSOP player of the year -- i would give a limb to have that oh my resume, i give that mad respect.Cardplayer POY -- I didnt even think BALCO could help him come back after Pham took the lead with two events to go. Impossible to knock the great tournament year he's had.Two WPT wins in one season -- I didnt hear anyone calling Gus the "Greatest Player of All Time" after that.Cash game success -- i have no damn clue, i dont pretend to know who is doing well in the big games like the rest of you seem to pretend to.Daniel had an amazing year in tournaments , fantastic year in fact, but to call him the greatest player of all time is idiotic.

[Kendren]

You use all these wonderful modern titles that Daniel has won as your arguments that he HAS to be the best ever. What about Johnny Moss? Amarillo Slim? TJ Cloutier? Doyle? These players all hit their prime before all these glittery titles and awards were out there, so there's no way to really compare them to Daniel. Maybe the one thing we can use as a measuring stick: If any single player sat down at your table, who would fill you with the most fear? That person could be considered the best in the world, if he was the consensus toughest. I dunno, I just dopn't think you can compare. Daniel may very well be the best of our time (yet to be seen), but best ever may be a title best left up to the individual deciding.

[LeeDanger]

Mojolang said:

If that is ridiculous, I would be more than happy to hear your counter-argument.

To say the best ever is quite a statement. Yes he is a great player but to say he is the best ever after just 3 years of tremendous success is going a little far. Was Wayne Gretzky considered the best player ever after his first few seasons? Hell no, people were excited of what could be but they still had to see what he would do in the coming years. Give Daniel a few years and then ask that question again. Right now it's too early.

Mojolang said:

Ok, so, I think the best arguments can be made for Ivey and Brunson.  Brunson is an old-schooler so I would throw him out right off, or compare him to Daniel up to 31.  Well, he didn't have the resources available to him at the time that Daniel did so it is a very hard comparison.

Again, I really like Ivey, but to consider him as competition for best ever is still too early. Personally I think him and and Negreanu are the best "young guns" right now but we still have a lot of time to see the potential greatness evolve.

Mojolang said:

I still think that Daniel's accomplishments this year along with the fact that he is playing and winning in the biggest games in the world put him at the top.

As of right now I agree.

[JimmyWellington]

Daniel has played some great poker lately and has had an awesome couple of years, especially this year. But to say that he's the best ever is utterly ridiculous and he'd be the first to tell you. I don't have to go into why, since all the problems with your statement have already been said.

[Mojolang]

Quote

sorry this reply took forever, i had to finish cleaning the vomit off of my lap from reading your original post.

That's very clever cmills, yet, hmmmm, strangely you provide no counterargument. Hmmm, that's kind of idiotic if you ask me.

Quote

(Raymer is the all time WSOP money winner, is he the greatest WSOP player of all time? correct me if i'm wrong).

Again, your point here is.....retarded. That was ONE tournament versus Daniel accomplishments in well lets see.....Paris (7th, season 2) Caribbean, PPMIII, Shooting Star (season 2) , Borgata and now the 5 diamond.Not to mention there was more than one game in Daniel's case.

Quote

Daniel had an amazing year in tournaments , fantastic year in fact, but to call him the greatest player of all time is idiotic.

Stunning argument, just brilliant.

Quote

What about Johnny Moss?

I would contend that when Johnny Moss was playing the games were nowhere near as tough as they are now. The technology and the available resources to players now I think just sets the modern player way ahead of players back then. Also, he only won the WSOP twice (Now I am just waiting for someone to make the idiotic claim he won it 3 times--I suggest you look further into this one before you make the claim---if you are thinking it, just bow your head in shame) and the fields were tiny.

Quote

Amarillo Slim?

Amarillo Slim(e) is a joke, Johnny Moss said it himself. I'm not going to go to the trouble of finding that quote, but I am sure if you looked for it you could find it. He was an angle shooter, a hustler and a mediocre player at best. It's no coincidence Ivey slaughtered him heads up in 2000 for the PLO bracelet. There is just NO WAYYYYY he could hack it in the big game

Quote

TJ Cloutier?

Again foolishness. He would get killed in a high stakes cash game.

Quote

Doyle?

Ok, now this one I could see. Doyle is no doubt one of the best and it is hard to compare an old schooler with one of the new kids. So on this point I say ok, yeah, maybe.

Quote

But to say that he's the best ever is utterly ridiculous and he'd be the first to tell you. I don't have to go into why, since all the problems with your statement have already been said.

Yeah there haven't been any Einstein. As I said, I conceded to the point that it is too hard to compare people like Chip, Doyle, and Greenstein, so one has reached an impass. All I am saying is this: Daniel has the most distinguished tourney record of the last decade I would contend. The card player POY has been around for quite a few years I thought (I wanna see Hellmuth won it in '96) . It is the fact that he is able to dominate these record fields as well as compete in the biggest cash games in the world put him in a very elite class.To quote Barry Greenstein

Quote

Daniel’s Bellagio WPT performance to capture the 2004 Card Player Player of the Year award was nothing short of historic. He also won the WSOP Player of the Year award – pretty impressive.

All Greenstein can say about Daniel's weakness at the table is "Efforts to balance his life lessen his money-making ability"Peace,Joe[/i]

[JimmyWellington]

Mojolang said:

Quote

But to say that he's the best ever is utterly ridiculous and he'd be the first to tell you. I don't have to go into why, since all the problems with your statement have already been said.

Yeah there haven't been any Einstein. As I said, I conceded to the point that it is too hard to compare people like Chip, Doyle, and Greenstein, so one has reached an impass.

Personal attacks, huh? Yeah, that's a great way to make an argument. I'm not wasting any more time with you.

[Painkilla]

Stu Unger is my vote for the best ever! ('80,'81 & '97)