Deep Tourney Hand

[benhoug 0]

$25K guaranteed on FCP. Just over 500 entrants. The bubble has burst and there's really no significant pay jump 'till 30th place. First place is over $6K. I have about an average stack, but it's so late in the tourney that everyone's M is pretty low.blinds = 1000/2000. There are roughly 50 players left. I have roughly 26K in the hijack. I cover button, BB covers us both.UTG limps, folds to me I make it 8K w/ AJ off (approx. 18K behind), button calls, BB calls, UTG folds. (26K in pot).Flop: AT8 rainbow. BB moves all in, I call, button calls. How is this call? My argument for making it is my hand was reasonably good (top pr, 3rd kicker), if I fold, my M would be like 6. There's really no pay increase for the next 20 spots, and if I get ahold of a big stack I could cash huge. Both players smooth-called pre-flop instead of re-raising, so I don't put them on monster hands.Thoughts???

[BeaverStyle 1]

So, after the UTG limps, theres 1000+2000+2000 = 5000 in the pot?Are there antes?Anyway, w/ a 26k stack, adding 5k to it by pushing... I'm not sure if I like that play.Anyway, you raise to 8k, making it 6k more to call into a pot of 13k. 2-1, BB's calling w/ any reasonable holding, especially since the button called as well.You flop top pair good kicker... yeah, there's no getting away from this with all that money in the pot, and the lack of increase in prize money.

[benhoug 0]

So, after the UTG limps, theres 1000+2000+2000 = 5000 in the pot?Are there antes?

No antes.

[Actuary 3]

I know you are a better MTT player than I; so I have to ask: Why are you so focused on the flop call ????????????????You absolutely can't raise 1/3 of your stack and consider folding when pot = at least 44k for 18k and you have TP. That's ridiculousTo me, this is why people think these posts are nothing but "here's my bust out hand, whaaa whaaaa" I'm not saying that to be mean; it's just so clearly a call on the flop that I can't understand the post, except to feel better about busting.The question is the Preflop.How tight were the blinds and b and co playing?What was UTG range here, in your mind?

[Fade2241 0]

I usually only raise to 3x the BB here. A 4x the BB bump at these blind levels to open a pot usually says “I have a hand, but it’s vulnirable and I want you to fold now.” I am sure the extra money in the pot effected your decision. As for the action - if I have TWO people calling my 4x the BB raise at this blind level I am pretty sure that AJ is beat and I am going to have to hit big hand before continuing. AK, AQ, A10, 10’s, and 8’s are all playable hands that have you crushed on this flop and honestly I think the chance one of them is out there is pretty good considering the PF action. The only playable hands that you’re ahead of are A9, A7-A2, QJ, and possibly K10. BB pushes into two people left to act… I muck the flop.

[Actuary 3]

I muck the flop.

yuck.

[Fade2241 0]

yuck.

You and I usually agree but I have to take this road because I think we’re behind. Results?

[Actuary 3]

You and I usually agree but I have to take this road because I think we’re behind. Results?

oh gosh yes, we're likely behind most of the time hereis that your criteria?and too early for results.

[rog 0]

I usually only raise to 3x the BB here. A 4x the BB bump at these blind levels to open a pot usually says “I have a hand, but it’s vulnirable and I want you to fold now.” I am sure the extra money in the pot effected your decision.

3XBB + 1XBB per limper is pretty standard no? Raising to 3X with limper(s) in is inviting all kinds of calls. Calling here is pretty read-dependant. Even though it's a bit less than pot sized, this push is not exactly begging for a call. I think with the pot size what it is, and how far we are from an increase in the payout, I'd be inclined to call without a read to the contrary

[BeaverStyle 1]

I don't see why you would fold this flop.What better flop are you trying to hit w/ AJ? JJx, AJx, KQ10? Ok, that'd be nice, but it's not gonna happen most of the time. A 10 8 flop, I go broke here, It's possible the BB is on a stop n go w/ J9, 79 (if they're laggy) and are trying to scoop it.Obviously you can't be happy about the button calling, but you have to put him on calling your preflop bet w/ A10, AQ+, 10 10, 88 to assume you're beat.You really think he just flat calls preflop with most of those hands?Just saying, i'm not finding a reason not to fold to this all in, and as played preflop, I don't see how we can get away from it, especially with how much is in the pot.

[Briguy 0]

I suspect BB has a weak A or even J9s more often than a strong A here. Wouldn't a strong A or a set check-raise or 1/2-pot this spot? I'm calling his all-in and then puking a little when button overcalls.Although I'd much rather see a JXX board with AJo and two callers.

[gobears 0]

I'm calling the flop bet - we hit our hand and I could see BB c/r AI if he really hit a great hand. I think that you're beat once button calls but we aren't last to act unfortunately

[benhoug 0]

What was UTG range here, in your mind?

At this stage of the tourney UTG would have raised any hand that had me beat (unless he was getting cute). He could have had AX suited, med. suited connectors, or even a crap hand like QJ, KJ, or something like KQ. What I had trouble with is figuring out Button and BB's range. I couldn't see them smooth-calling w/ a whole lot of hands that had me in bad shape - only AT, A8 really. I think they re-shove AK and AQ (like I said, bubble had already burst), TT or even 88. Maybe 88 takes a flop, but that's not exactly my style.

[shpaget 0]

I know you are a better MTT player than I; so I have to ask: Why are you so focused on the flop call ????????????????You absolutely can't raise 1/3 of your stack and consider folding when pot = at least 44k for 18k and you have TP. That's ridiculousTo me, this is why people think these posts are nothing but "here's my bust out hand, whaaa whaaaa" I'm not saying that to be mean; it's just so clearly a call on the flop that I can't understand the post, except to feel better about busting.The question is the Preflop.How tight were the blinds and b and co playing?What was UTG range here, in your mind?

I agree 100% with Actuary here - the question on this hand lies preflop.Does anyone object to pushing here?If you limp, you can at least get away from it post flop.As played, the flop is a clear call.

[trystero 0]

I agree 100% with Actuary here - the question on this hand lies preflop.Does anyone object to pushing here?

In MP I do. There are just too many players to act behind. If we were on the button or in the blinds then I would really consider this.

[shpaget 0]

In MP I do. There are just too many players to act behind. If we were on the button or in the blinds then I would really consider this.

There's no indication (unless I'm blind) that OP is in MP...I got the impression he was CO.

[Fade2241 0]

Sorry, I missed the action “UTG limps” My bad. I don’t even raise there PF I just limp. Oh and I still want a better flop than this – too many people in the pot for me to go broke here.

I don't see why you would fold this flop.What better flop are you trying to hit w/ AJ? JJx, AJx, KQ10? Ok, that'd be nice, but it's not gonna happen most of the time. A 10 8 flop, I go broke here, It's possible the BB is on a stop n go w/ J9, 79 (if they're laggy) and are trying to scoop it.Obviously you can't be happy about the button calling, but you have to put him on calling your preflop bet w/ A10, AQ+, 10 10, 88 to assume you're beat.You really think he just flat calls preflop with most of those hands?Just saying, i'm not finding a reason not to fold to this all in, and as played preflop, I don't see how we can get away from it, especially with how much is in the pot.

I've been burned too many times with AJ. In a multiway pot give me a min flop of J 9 4 rainbow before I start spewing chips.

[Actuary 3]

I've been burned too many times with AJ. In a multiway pot give me a min flop of J 9 4 rainbow before I start spewing chips.

pot odds mean anything to you?chance to have big stack to make solid run mean anything?***********************Shpaget,we are MP3 (hijack)I was asking for a read on UTG range and tightness of other palyers behind us, because I would certainly consider a pf shove here. Pot is 5000. We have 26000. Any standard raise imo committs us to an A/J flop. Or if we end up HU with UTG on a 449 type flop, we're beting the flop and committed then. I generally remove the stnd raise from my arsenal at the M<10 stage, after limpers, especially. Unless it's tight table where we're all trading blinds steals in positionIf tight players behind me, I'm shoving this preflop.I could also limp here and play a flop with looser/passive co/b/blinds

[Fade2241 0]

pot odds mean anything to you?chance to have big stack to make solid run mean anything?***********************

Does going broke mean anything to you?!?

[Actuary 3]

Does going broke mean anything to you?!?

it's all part of the calculation.going broke 65% of the time or going from 14k to 44k 35% of the time.Which makes us more money in an increasing blind MTT with typical payout structures ?Calling does obv.and 65% is conservative.

[benhoug 0]

Results?

Not only was I behind, I was in 3rd place out of 3 players.BB had AK = top pr/better kickerButton had TT = middle setI have no idea how neither of them re-shoved p/f. All things considered, this was probably the worst possible flop for my hand. Still, I think I'm getting broke any way I play this one.

[Fade2241 0]

it's all part of the calculation.going broke 65% of the time or going from 14k to 44k 35% of the time.Which makes us more money in an increasing blind MTT with typical payout structures ?Calling does obv.and 65% is conservative.

Okay, that explanation makes sense. I understand the inclination of gambling it up to get more chips at this stage of the MTT – maybe I’m just taking too much of an EV approach to the situation when this is a tournament and not a cash game. I guess I just like to do my gambling in MTT’s a different way. As played this hand just drives me nuts

[Actuary 3]

– maybe I’m just taking too much of an EV approach to the situation when this is a tournament and not a cash game.

It's an EV call in Cash games if you think you are 35% to win post flop.barely, assuming we have 14k and pot is 44k before our call.*******************I knew this was one of those obvious post flop calls where you lost

[benhoug 0]

I knew this was one of those obvious post flop calls where you lost

I just wanted to make sure it was one of those hands.

[Fade2241 0]

It's an EV call in Cash games if you think you are 35% to win post flop.barely, assuming we have 14k and pot is 44k before our call.*******************I knew this was one of those obvious post flop calls where you lost

I am also relating my response to how most players play during these blind levels which is usually timid. If I get two callers of my 4x the BB raise at this level w/AJ PF I’m beat, period – and I’m gonna need to flop huge in order to continue the hand. The PF action is the most important criteria for this hand. All the red flags are there that you’re dominated and you still say it’s okay to shove this flop because of pot odds? I don’t play like that.