Moving In On The River?

[IAGTTAYM 0]

Jagone was playing extremly lose preflop and on the flop. He was limping into aprox. 85% of the pots and raisning 10 % of them.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)saw flop|saw showdownMP3 (t10055)CO (t6415)Hero (t5075)SB (t3790)BB (t4725)UTG (t5270)UTG+1 (t5655)MP1 (t5020)MP2 (t4475)Preflop: Hero is Button with A , J . 5 folds, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t120, 2 folds, CO calls t90.Flop: (t285) 9 , 4 , J (2 players)CO checks, Hero bets t200, CO raises to t400, Hero raises to t1200, CO calls t800.Turn: (t2685) 4 (2 players)CO checks, Hero bets t2000, CO calls t2000.River: (t6685) T (2 players)CO checks, Hero ?

[simo_8ball 1]

I like preflop. You want to isolate, and 120 is a good amount.I like the flop. Your reraise could be a little larger, but 800 more is ok.I like the turn. You get value from most of his hands.I probably check behind on the river.

[GrinderMJ 0]

I actually agree with pretty much everything simoball said. Sometimes, I smooth call that raise on the flop and shove the turn after he bets but your line is ok for sure there I think. River looks like a check behind to me.

[gobears 0]

Could be a busted flush draw from someone who's stubborn in which case he folds to any river betHe could also have a weaker jack in which case we miss a value bet if we check behind.I probably check behind just in case he has J10 or KcQc. If he's extremely loose preflop, he could even have a suited 45 or something.

[Zach6668 513]

I'm very very happy that your first post was a converted hand in strategy.Welcome to the forums, and listen to these guys ^^^^^

[TheCinciKid 0]

I think the old adage that we don't bet marginal hands on the river applies here. He probably calls more often when we're beat than when we're ahead. Hence, checking behind is good.

[Actuary 3]

welcome.preflop: is fine. Deep stacks. you could play this a few ways. I'd prefer a bigger raise to ensure isolationflop: I'm ok with re-raise to 1200.Turn: you over bet and I'm shocked no one else said soRiver: very very very clear check behind

[IAGTTAYM 0]

Turn: you over bet and I'm shocked no one else said so

How much do you want me to bet into the 2685 pot? About 1700?

[Actuary 3]

How much do you want me to bet into the 2685 pot? About 1700-1800?

Against tricky-lags, I could bet 0 here and re-evaluate a river bet from him.Against loose-passivish flop callers, I'd bet 900-1000, and decide what to do if he shoves: Would he do that with a semi-bluff or Jx, or is it a set or J9 Betting 2000t, you can't fold, imo.Only against the loosest calling stations would I consider betting thatAnd his flop c/r, would negate that idea for me

[delasoul 0]

Free play...I check behind as well. You probably would not be able withstand a re-raise on the river.

[yourboygsarida 0]

considering you have no real range on him, id check too, because this has the feel of j9 to me who is afraid of his two pair counterfited possibly/busted draw. either way, you prob only get called if you are beat

[Actuary 3]

why are we focusing on river?that's a ridiculous no brainer check.

[Fade2241 0]

I like another $1200 on the turn for value – that sounds about right. 2k is pricing you in too much. Results?

[IAGTTAYM 0]

Okey guys, thanks for the input on the hand. In retrospect, I think i should have bet less on the turn as Actuary has pointed out.

Results?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)saw flop|saw showdownMP3 (t10055)CO (t6415)Hero (t5075)SB (t3790)BB (t4725)UTG (t5270)UTG+1 (t5655)MP1 (t5020)MP2 (t4475)Preflop: Hero is Button with A, J. 5 folds, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t120, 2 folds, CO calls t90.Flop: (t285) 9, 4, J(2 players)CO checks, Hero bets t200, CO raises to t400, Hero raises to t1200, CO calls t800.Turn: (t2685) 4(2 players)CO checks, Hero bets t2000, CO calls t2000.River: (t6685) T(2 players)CO checks, Hero checks.Final Pot: t6685Results in white below: CO has 6h 9h (two pair, nines and fours). Hero has As Js (two pair, jacks and fours). Outcome: Hero wins t6685.

[Actuary 3]

holy cow he was dreadful!!bet more on turn :Doh, one more thing, it's best to include the $BuyIn.Some levels play differently that others.

[tskillz187 0]

why are we focusing on river?that's a ridiculous no brainer check.

Really? I don't agree. I think we are getting value far too often from QJ, KJ.But I don't bet the turn either. LAG-dudes can have their free turns and bluff on the river. I check the turn, call his pot bet on the river, and if checks on river I value bet.

[IAGTTAYM 0]

holy cow he was dreadful!!bet more on turn

Yeah, I know...I think that is why I asked about moving in on the river. Result oriented question...

oh, one more thing, it's best to include the $BuyIn.Some levels play differently that others.

Will do and thanks again.

[Actuary 3]

Really? I don't agree. I think we are getting value far too often from QJ, KJ.But I don't bet the turn either. LAG-dudes can have their free turns and bluff on the river. I check the turn, call his pot bet on the river, and if checks on river I value bet.

checking turn is the exception.as noted, against tricky/lags, we can.I'd like to charge a flush draw (c/r a flush draw on flop? hmm, yeah, I don't get that play)When he calls turn, river is easy check behindYou can disagree all you want.I do agree is we check turn, we should value bet river if checked to.What size bet/bluff we can call is tough, and probably why betting turn/checking river is better play to make for most players.

[tskillz187 0]

checking turn is the exception.as noted, against tricky/lags, we can.I'd like to charge a flush draw (c/r a flush draw on flop? hmm, yeah, I don't get that play)When he calls turn, river is easy check behindYou can disagree all you want.I do agree is we check turn, we should value bet river if checked to.What size bet/bluff we can call is tough, and probably why betting turn/checking river is better play to make for most players.

Why? I don't understand, he's shown no aggression and unless he just hit his two pair and is going to C/R us we are going get value. The times that he has QJ,KJ and the money won on value bet is > the times he has 10J and chose to go for the C/R river. He needs to both have 10J and not lead out at us. Which isn't all that unlikely but I can see him leading about 1/2 the time, where we obviously just call. It seems to me we are just checking the river because "the pot is big enough". Looks like value lost in my mind.

[Actuary 3]

he could also be an idiot with 99 here.we can't fold to any raise.he called 2000 on turn.we don't yet know he's a horrible calling station.it's much more likely he's a slow playing donk, than he'll have a hand he can call now.the flop c/r and turn flat call of 2000, does not look like a weak J to me, often enough

[tskillz187 0]

he could also be an idiot with 99 here.we can't fold to any raise.he called 2000 on turn.we don't yet know he's a horrible calling station.it's much more likely he's a slow playing donk, than he'll have a hand he can call now.the flop c/r and turn flat call of 2000, does not look like a weak J to me, often enough

Fine. But doesn't this make the turn check all the more reasonable? Keep pot small, get to river, be able to call or bet tptk then. Once we've bloated the pot with the 2k turn, what is the reason for not taking it all the way? This pot already got big and out of control for my liking, might as well get max value when I'm right.Seriously, if I catch myself making a mistake (what I consider a mistake, betting the turn all strong) and putting myself into a tricky river scenario, I'm going to go full steam into it, that way if I'm wrong then I have a firsthand experience on why you keep pots small, and if I'm right I just got myself a nice stack and already realized I made a mistake in the middle of the hand and won't do it again.Off topic of that, what do we do when he leads river all in? Just another reason why I don't like the turn bet, because I'm calling the all in river.

[Actuary 3]

yeah, 2000 turn bet blows.We cant fold any river shove.1000 bet is ok.we can fold a river shove then.I do check these turns a lot.I do think it makes the river tougher to play.So, I would not recommend it w/o knowing posters skill/comfort level or the buy in.your logic for why you'd jam the river if you bet 2000 on turn is funny.pathetic, though.

[tskillz187 0]

your logic for why you'd jam the river if you bet 2000 on turn is funny.pathetic, though.

HAHAHAHA.I'm a pretty sad individual.

[shpaget 0]

Why? I don't understand, he's shown no aggression and unless he just hit his two pair and is going to C/R us we are going get value. The times that he has QJ,KJ and the money won on value bet is > the times he has 10J and chose to go for the C/R river. He needs to both have 10J and not lead out at us. Which isn't all that unlikely but I can see him leading about 1/2 the time, where we obviously just call. It seems to me we are just checking the river because "the pot is big enough". Looks like value lost in my mind.

I think TJ, T9, QK, 7c8c, Qc8c, 99 are reasonable holdings, and are all calling/raising your river bet far more often than QJ,KJ or 69 are.In the long run checking behind is the more valuable play.

[tskillz187 0]

I think TJ, T9, QK, 7c8c, Qc8c, 99 are reasonable holdings, and are all calling/raising your river bet far more often than QJ,KJ or 69 are.In the long run checking behind is the more valuable play.

The problem I have with these holdings, which some I think are likely and others a lot less likely (QK for example), is that they would also have had to check the river expecting a bet, I think they lead out on the river far more often than they go for a C/R.