428 replies to this topic

[zzz]

The facts are nobody knows anything for sure. "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing.”-Socrates.Stick to the facts please? Saying you have no soul, you are not eternal, life ceases to exist after physical death, are merely pessimistic views on the unknown. When choosing pessimistic views over optimistic ones, you are also choosing stupidity and ignorance.

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 3:44 PM, said:

Saying you have no soul, you are not eternal, life ceases to exist after physical death, are merely pessimistic views on the unknown.

no, they are objective views of what the evidence indicates.

[zzz]

crowTrobot, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 5:53 PM, said:

no, they are objective views of what the evidence indicates.

I get it. According to you they are objective views. However, these views are part of the reason why you are so miserable. You are starting to sound like a hardcore Christian. "I know I can't prove it, but I won't change my pessimistic views because for me they are facts."

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 4:04 PM, said:

I get it. According to you they are objective views. However, these views are part of the reason why you are so miserable.

cult speak alert.

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 4:04 PM, said:

You are starting to sound like a hardcore Christian. "I know I can't prove it, but I won't change my pessimistic views because for me they are facts."

views based on an overwhelming amount of physical evidence are not pessimistic or optimistic. they are simply objective.

[zzz]

crowTrobot, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 6:11 PM, said:

cult speak alert.views based on an overwhelming amount of physical evidence are not pessimistic or optimistic. they are simply objective.

No evidence proving your arguement. I would be miserable too if I had your after death "knowledge".So in your mind in order to be happy you simply can't be objective. Considering yours and mine afterlife beliefs objectively, I am a happier person then you or WrongWay. You believe life will end without total proof. I believe I will be happy forever without total proof. Only an idiot would choose your belief.

[SilentSnow]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 5:37 PM, said:

No evidence proving your arguement. I would be miserable too if I had your after death "knowledge".So in your mind in order to be happy you simply can't be objective. Considering yours and mine afterlife beliefs objectively, I am a happier person then you or WrongWay. You believe life will end without total proof. I believe I will be happy forever without total proof. Only an idiot would choose your belief.

That there is a 100 percent correlation between us and our physical brains is about as close to total proof as you are ever going to get. All of the contrary evidence you have presented is complete nonsense and wishful thinking. Truth is not based on a popularity poll. I would put the odds of us surviving the physical destruction of our brains at about a million to one. The ONLY way we survive after death is if the entire universe is fundamentally different than all reason and observation point to. But once you start rejecting the entire known universe your argument is on awfully shaky ground. Of course many religions and most people believe we wont die, but these beliefs have zero correlation with known facts. So at what point can you accept a lie in favor of more supposed "happiness"? What is the probability threshold of "total proof"? For you, it seems that you have such a high threshold that happy lies will ALWAYS beat out any unpleasant truths. So give me a number so we can discuss it. I personally think you must accept the truth if it rises much above the 70 to 90 percent range. Since us actually surviving our physical death is more like a million to one, rejecting this truth is unacceptable."So in your mind in order to be happy you simply can't be objective."This is one of the more ironic quotes I've seen lately, since this is in fact exactly what you yourself are doing.

[zzz]

SilentSnow, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 8:39 PM, said:

That there is a 100 percent correlation between us and our physical brains is about as close to total proof as you are ever going to get. All of the contrary evidence you have presented is complete nonsense and wishful thinking. Truth is not based on a popularity poll. I would put the odds of us surviving the physical destruction of our brains at about a million to one. The ONLY way we survive after death is if the entire universe is fundamentally different than all reason and observation point to. But once you start rejecting the entire known universe your argument is on awfully shaky ground. Of course many religions and most people believe we wont die, but these beliefs have zero correlation with known facts. So at what point can you accept a lie in favor of more supposed "happiness"? What is the probability threshold of "total proof"? For you, it seems that you have such a high threshold that happy lies will ALWAYS beat out any unpleasant truths. So give me a number so we can discuss it. I personally think you must accept the truth if it rises much above the 70 to 90 percent range. Since us actually surviving our physical death is more like a million to one, rejecting this truth is unacceptable."So in your mind in order to be happy you simply can't be objective."This is one of the more ironic quotes I've seen lately, since this is in fact exactly what you yourself are doing.

"All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." - Albert Einstein. It is 8 Million+ people's reality that they exist without their body because they have experienced it. You are simply disregarding 8,000,000 pieces of evidence in the U.S. alone. Even without this evidence it would be smarter to "illogically" believe in a more optimistic view on death because optimism is the what makes people happy.

[SilentSnow]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 7:42 PM, said:

"All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." - Albert Einstein. It is 8 Million+ people's reality that they exist without their body because they have experienced it. You are simply disregarding 8,000,000 pieces of evidence in the U.S. alone. Even without this evidence it would be smarter to "illogically" believe in a more optimistic view on death because optimism is the what makes people happy.

So you are a nihilist and believe that truth does not matter at all, but rather people should believe anything that makes them more happy, no matter how false.At least youre willing to admit it. Also, I should hardly need to point out that argument by popularity is a horrifically bad way to determine the truth if there are any other methods at all available.

[Flack_attack]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 9:42 PM, said:

Even without this evidence it would be smarter to "illogically" believe in a more optimistic view on death because optimism is the what makes people happy.

Wrong.

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 7:42 PM, said:

It is 8 Million+ people's reality that they exist without their body because they have experienced it. You are simply disregarding 8,000,000 pieces of evidence in the U.S. alone.

i see. so if what large amounts of people claim to have experienced is evidence to you, then i presume you simultaniously believe every major religion and cult in the world, as well as UFO's, bigfoot etc? there is no difference between those things and claims of NDE's.anyway i found a little info on this poll you keep harping on - it was taken in 1992 when NDE's were getting a lot of press and before a lot of the modern scienctific studies on the subject with negative results were conducted. the question apparently did not strictly specify actual death experiences where vitals ceased and restarted but allowed for close call (life-threatening situation etc) out-of-body experiences. i was unable to find the total number surveyed, but 5% responded positive. your website presumably is extrapolating that 5% into 8 million somehow, and spinning the number to represent 8 million actual death experiences, which it didn't.

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Even without this evidence it would be smarter to "illogically" believe in a more optimistic view on death because optimism is the what makes people happy.

as long as you are illogically believing something why stop there? why not convince yourself there are a bunch of virgins waiting for you in the afterlife?...oh, that's been done? sorry.

[zzz]

SilentSnow, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 10:23 PM, said:

So you are a nihilist and believe that truth does not matter at all, but rather people should believe anything that makes them more happy, no matter how false.At least youre willing to admit it. Also, I should hardly need to point out that argument by popularity is a horrifically bad way to determine the truth if there are any other methods at all available.

As seen by mine and your arguements, truth is subjective. Who says it's false? Science? lol. Science isn't the answer to everything.It is the argument that if 8 million people say they had this experience and that it was real to them then I would have to be an extremely non-trusting person not to believe them.

crowTrobot, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 11:04 PM, said:

i see. so if what large amounts of people claim to have experienced is evidence to you, then i presume you simultaniously believe every major religion and cult in the world, as well as UFO's, bigfoot etc? there is no difference between those things and claims of NDE's.anyway i found a little info on this poll you keep harping on - it was taken in 1992 when NDE's were getting a lot of press and before a lot of the modern scienctific studies on the subject with negative results were conducted. the question apparently did not strictly specify actual death experiences where vitals ceased and restarted but allowed for close call (life-threatening situation etc) out-of-body experiences. i was unable to find the total number surveyed, but 5% responded positive. your website presumably is extrapolating that 5% into 8 million somehow, and spinning the number to represent 8 million actual death experiences, which it didn't.as long as you are illogically believing something why stop there? why not convince yourself there are a bunch of virgins waiting for you in the afterlife?...oh, that's been done? sorry.

The number came from the unbiased Wilkepedia. I am "illogically" believing it according to you. Again, only a moron holds pessimistic views especially big ones like there is no after life eventhough I can't prove it.

Flack_attack, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 10:52 PM, said:

Wrong.

...Care to elaborate?

[Sluggo]

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You believe life will end without total proof. I believe I will be happy forever without total proof. Only an idiot would choose your belief.

Consider this:You believe Jesus won't mail me $1,000,000. I believe Jesus will mail me $1,000,000. Only an idiot would choose your belief.See the logical fallacy?

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 8:55 PM, said:

As seen by mine and your arguements, truth is subjective.

Truth is not subjective. Either a statement is true or it is false.

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Again, only a moron holds pessimistic views especially big ones like there is no after life eventhough I can't prove it.

You are a moron then. There are more optimistic beliefs than the ones you hold.

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 9:55 PM, said:

The number came from the unbiased Wilkepedia

wikipedia is not exactly a peer-reviewed publication lol. anyone who wants to can enter "facts" and they frequently end up not being double checked. in this case that number is just someone's unscientific extrapolation from a 14-year-old ambiguous poll where 5% of those surveyed claimed NDEs, and none of the claims were medically verified.

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It is the argument that if 8 million people say they had this experience and that it was real to them then I would have to be an extremely non-trusting person not to believe them.

would it be extremely non-trusting to not believe hundreds of millions of islamists? if not, please explain the difference.

[Canada]

zzz, on Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 4:55 AM, said:

As seen by mine and your arguements, truth is subjective. Who says it's false? Science? lol. Science isn't the answer to everything.

I love the way you make it sound like science is a cult or religion in its own right with elite membership.You do realise science is essentially the search for explanations ie the truth?You don't have to have any preconceived beliefs or assumptions. All you need to do is to seek an answer using all the FACTS & EVIDENCE and the activity you are undertaking is a scientific experiment.So what you are saying is that 'to search for the truth is not the way to find it.' :icon_doh:What I like is that you start your arguments using science thus

zzz, on Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 9:13 PM, said:

No evidence of brain activity. Strong evidence showing no brain activity whatsoever. No blood flowing through brain, no brain stem function, no brain function found. All 3 scientific tests used to measure brain activity came out negative.This case has nothing to do with "backill" of information. She described things in the operating room when she was brain dead that were accurate that she otherwise couldn't have known.

and yet when your evidence gets challenged on its authenticity or an alternative explanation is put forward that also fits with you evidence you get all bitchy and state that 'science doesn't answer evertything'lol, you can't have it both ways.If NDE's are what you are conjecturing you will need some irrefutable evidence. You started of well but simply showed you either don't have said evidence or that you don't have the conviction needed to find it.The best thing is that if you can come up with it, your opposition in this thread would have to concede.

[Canada]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 10:44 PM, said:

The facts are nobody knows anything for sure. "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing.”-Socrates.Stick to the facts please? Saying you have no soul, you are not eternal, life ceases to exist after physical death, are merely pessimistic views on the unknown. When choosing pessimistic views over optimistic ones, you are also choosing stupidity and ignorance.

Would you mind spelling out what is pessimistic about life having an end.If we are eternal in that we are concious forever in one form or another this makes absolutely everything we do in this world and 'the next' pointless beyond belief

[LongLiveYorke]

I don't get it.So do you really believe that when you die, your soul physically comes out of your body. It has eyes and can look around and create memories inside of your real body (yes, it has the ability to alter neural connections within your brain while standing outside of it and from a distance). So this soul, instead of flapping it's wings and going up to heaven, decided to stick around and watch the operation a bit. Do you really think that heaven is a physical place that the soul has to go to? Do you think that it is of this plane of existence so the soul, upon exiting the body, literally exits the body and goes toward heaven? You think the soul literally walks out of a body, like in the movies, and can choose to stand around and watch people?Or could it possibly be the fact that the person, while unconscious, was able to hear certain things and pieced those things together in an unconscious state to form a memory. She heard a drilling noise, which sounded exactly like a dentist's drill, and thought she remembered a dentist like tool, or an electrical toothbrush or whatever. And she heard what people were saying and was somehow able to piece together in her dreamlike state the events that were taking place. Also, she added her grandmother and a vortex or something pulling her up into heaven. But my dreams are weird too, so I don't blame her.

[zzz]

Sluggo, on Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 1:45 AM, said:

You are a moron then. There are more optimistic beliefs than the ones you hold.

Haha, don't think so. I believe I am eternal--have no beginning and no end. I believe I chose to come to Earth to teach and learn about love. I believe after death I can continue to choose to experience whatever I want. What view is more optimistic then that?

Canada, on Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 7:31 AM, said:

Would you mind spelling out what is pessimistic about life having an end.If we are eternal in that we are concious forever in one form or another this makes absolutely everything we do in this world and 'the next' pointless beyond belief

I only know by experience. Experience tells me that believing in no afterlife makes me unhappy. Believing in an afterlife makes me happy. It would be really stupid of me to believe in something that makes me unhappy.

LongLiveYorke, on Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 9:03 AM, said:

I don't get it.So do you really believe that when you die, your soul physically comes out of your body. It has eyes and can look around and create memories inside of your real body (yes, it has the ability to alter neural connections within your brain while standing outside of it and from a distance). So this soul, instead of flapping it's wings and going up to heaven, decided to stick around and watch the operation a bit. Do you really think that heaven is a physical place that the soul has to go to? Do you think that it is of this plane of existence so the soul, upon exiting the body, literally exits the body and goes toward heaven? You think the soul literally walks out of a body, like in the movies, and can choose to stand around and watch people?Or could it possibly be the fact that the person, while unconscious, was able to hear certain things and pieced those things together in an unconscious state to form a memory. She heard a drilling noise, which sounded exactly like a dentist's drill, and thought she remembered a dentist like tool, or an electrical toothbrush or whatever. And she heard what people were saying and was somehow able to piece together in her dreamlike state the events that were taking place. Also, she added her grandmother and a vortex or something pulling her up into heaven. But my dreams are weird too, so I don't blame her.

Lol. Physically, no. Yes I believe all life has a non-physical "soul" and hangs out in another dimension.It has been documented that she could not physically hear or see anything. All three brain tests were negative for brain function. Even hallucinations would have registered.

[Loismustdie]

Canada, on Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 5:31 AM, said:

Would you mind spelling out what is pessimistic about life having an end.If we are eternal in that we are concious forever in one form or another this makes absolutely everything we do in this world and 'the next' pointless beyond belief

That's actually the most backwards thing I have read in this thread- if we are to live forever in another form, with choices as to how that forever will be, then this life and what we do in it is of the utmost importance. Don't get me wrong, ZZZ makes me look like genius with his arguments, and I won't even begin to try and answer questions past what God has told me in the bible, which is precisely what ZZZ is doing.

[Canada]

Loismustdie, on Tuesday, October 31st, 2006, 3:40 PM, said:

That's actually the most backwards thing I have read in this thread- if we are to live forever in another form, with choices as to how that forever will be, then this life and what we do in it is of the utmost importance. Don't get me wrong, ZZZ makes me look like genius with his arguments, and I won't even begin to try and answer questions past what God has told me in the bible, which is precisely what ZZZ is doing.

That is the Christian spin on things. EDIT: Let me spell that out a little more. The Christian spin is that if you are good you are rewarded if you are bad you are punished. That is neither optomistic nor pessimistic, for want of a better word it is realisticzzz's whole argument is that you must believe in something optomistic regarding an afterlife to make you happy.You recently had some 'debate' with him where he said it was stupid to believe in a God that punishes you when you can believe in one that doesn't. Here is the link to the beginningThe only way belief his can maintain his optomism is if eternal life and hapiness is assured, which makes this life pointless.

[WrongWay]

ZZZ,Has there ever been a time in your life when you did not believe in an afterlife? If so, where you unhappy?If not, then how can you know that you would be unhappy.To me, you seem very much like a person that has been brainwashed into fearing truth. You must believe in an afterlife, or you will be miserable.In short, it is you that lives your life in fear.... You fear losing your belief in a lie, because if you allow yourself to see the lie for what it is, you will be miserable.I for one, am not miserable, do not believe in an afterlife, and do not live every day in fear that I'll lose my belief in a lie. I am able to look at a scientific study of afterlife, and the conclusion that it is not real, without any discomfort.