428 replies to this topic

[zzz]

People have NDEs While Brain Dead

[crowTrobot]

it's interesting, but not really convincing evidence. for one just because they weren't able to measure brain activity didn't mean conclusively that it wasn't still going on at some level. we don't understand brain function very well.and also there are other objective studies that have shown the brain has a remarkable ability to *backill* information - to create memory based on current information that wasn't available, particularly during times of extreme stress.

[theresa113]

I am reading Deepak Chopra's book Life After Death right now and it is really good. I also want to thank the forum member publicly for sending it to me. (We have the best forum members on FCP, we really do.)

[zzz]

crowTrobot, on Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 1:01 PM, said:

it's interesting, but not really convincing evidence. for one just because they weren't able to measure brain activity didn't mean conclusively that it wasn't still going on at some level. we don't understand brain function very well.and also there are other objective studies that have shown the brain has a remarkable ability to *backill* information - to create memory based on current information that wasn't available, particularly during times of extreme stress.

No evidence of brain activity. Strong evidence showing no brain activity whatsoever. No blood flowing through brain, no brain stem function, no brain function found. All 3 scientific tests used to measure brain activity came out negative.This case has nothing to do with "backill" of information. She described things in the operating room when she was brain dead that were accurate that she otherwise couldn't have known.

[DonkSlayer]

What about ghosts, spirits, etc?I've seen scientific studies where certain characteristics of "ghosts", i.e., walking through walls, is impossible because mass would be required to have the ghost be seen walking through walls anyway.However, I my non-scientific argument would be that there are many, many more personal accounts and video/photo evidence of ghosts than of angels/Gods, etc.Any thoughts? Does the fact that a ghost looked basically the same 2,000 years ago as it does today bear any creedence? Is there any scientific room for a blending of dimensions?

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 2:13 PM, said:

This case has nothing to do with "backill" of information. She described things in the operating room when she was brain dead that were accurate that she otherwise couldn't have known.

in what scientifically controlled experimental sense did she describe things that she couldn't have known about otherwise? was it documented that the nurse said something while she was dead and she repeated it afterwords verbatim? no.was it documented that she couldn't have possibly been aware of the instrument she described from another time before or after? no.it's a nice story that might indicate something IS going on with life after death, but it is not scientific evidence that something is.

[TenaciousMe]

Interesting article!

[zzz]

crowTrobot, on Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 7:09 PM, said:

in what scientifically controlled experimental sense did she describe things that she couldn't have known about otherwise? was it documented that the nurse said something while she was dead and she repeated it afterwords verbatim? no.was it documented that she couldn't have possibly been aware of the instrument she described from another time before or after? no.it's a nice story that might indicate something IS going on with life after death, but it is not scientific evidence that something is.

Skeptics looking at this case in more detail have yet to come to the conclusion that it was anything but a real memory.

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 7:37 PM, said:

Skeptics looking at this case in more detail have yet to come to the conclusion that it was anything but a real memory.

what skeptics? skeptical scientists would correctly say that there's no evidence either way, because there were no controls in place that would verify or refute what anyone is saying about the event. after-the-fact accounts and hearsay are not evidence. if they were UFO's, bigfoot, loch ness monster etc should all be considered supported by scientific evidence, which is obviously preposterous.in truth this site appears to have a pre-set agenda, and is using its own non-objective spin on what constitutes evidence to sell books. same is obviously true with chopra's site/book, which is spinning the evidence to meet a pre-set agenda, and to tell people like theresa who already have a predisposition to believe in a soul exactly what they want to hear AND SELL BOOKS.near death & out of body experiences, memories of previous lives etc. are all interesting phenomena that are worthy of exploring scientifically, but to this point there is no hard evidence that the brain isn't capable of self-fabricating all of it.

[zzz]

crowTrobot, on Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 10:52 PM, said:

what skeptics? skeptical scientists would correctly say that there's no evidence either way, because there were no controls in place that would verify or refute what anyone is saying about the event. after-the-fact accounts and hearsay are not evidence. if they were UFO's, bigfoot, loch ness monster etc should all be considered supported by scientific evidence, which is obviously preposterous.in truth this site appears to have a pre-set agenda, and is using its own non-objective spin on what constitutes evidence to sell books. same is obviously true with chopra's site/book, which is spinning the evidence to meet a pre-set agenda, and to tell people like theresa who already have a predisposition to believe in a soul exactly what they want to hear AND SELL BOOKS.near death & out of body experiences, memories of previous lives etc. are all interesting phenomena that are worthy of exploring scientifically, but to this point there is no hard evidence that the brain isn't capable of self-fabricating all of it.

You are right. It is not scientificly proven. It isn't scientificly proven that I breathed today either.

[Flack_attack]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 1:31 AM, said:

You are right. It is not scientificly proven. It isn't scientificly proven that I breathed today either.

How?

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Sunday, October 29th, 2006, 9:31 PM, said:

You are right. It is not scientificly proven. It isn't scientificly proven that I breathed today either.

assuming that's a serious analogy (in which case ) note that there is a huge amount of hard scientific evidence that indicates humans are incapable of holding their breath for 24 hours without dying, so given that you aren't dead it is extremely likely you did breath today.there is no such hard scientific evidence that supports the likelyhood of the existence of a soul.

[zzz]

crowTrobot, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 12:05 AM, said:

assuming that's a serious analogy (in which case ) note that there is a huge amount of hard scientific evidence that indicates humans are incapable of holding their breath for 24 hours without dying, so given that you aren't dead it is extremely likely you did breath today.there is no such hard scientific evidence that supports the likelyhood of the existence of a soul.

Millions of people have reported having a near death experience where they view things outside their unconscious bodies. It is extremely likely that consciousness exists outside the body."All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." -Albert Einstein

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 8:14 AM, said:

Millions of people have reported having a near death experience where they view things outside their unconscious bodies. It is extremely likely that consciousness exists outside the body.

millions? exaggerate much lol?anyway there are many cases where false memory brought about by stress or other causes has been scientifically demonstrated. in fact some studies seem to indicate that the brain is creating false or backfilled short-term memory continually as part of its *normal* function. and for that matter many more people than have had NDE's have seen UFO's and reported that they were real. BILLIONS of people report that their religous beliefs are real even though they are mutually incompatable with the beliefs of billions of others who also report theirs are real. obviously the brain is quite capable of convincing itself that something that isn't true is. until we have a better understanding of how the brain, memory, and consciousness work any number of recounted NDEs while intriguing are not direct evidence for a soul. they are only evidence that we don't understand everything that goes on in the brain.

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 8:14 AM, said:

"All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it." -Albert Einstein

einstein is the all-time king of being quoted out of context.

[zzz]

crowTrobot, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 11:40 AM, said:

millions? exaggerate much lol?anyway there are many cases where false memory brought about by stress or other causes has been scientifically demonstrated. in fact some studies seem to indicate that the brain is creating false or backfilled short-term memory continually as part of its *normal* function. and for that matter many more people than have had NDE's have seen UFO's and reported that they were real. BILLIONS of people report that their religous beliefs are real even though they are mutually incompatable with the beliefs of billions of others who also report theirs are real. obviously the brain is quite capable of convincing itself that something that isn't true is. until we have a better understanding of how the brain, memory, and consciousness work any number of recounted NDEs while intriguing are not direct evidence for a soul. they are only evidence that we don't understand everything that goes on in the brain.einstein is the all-time king of being quoted out of context.

The Gallup Organization and near death research studies estimates ADULT U.S. near death experiences at 13 million.The brain is purely physical. We can tell when it is not working at all. This article doesn't go into great detail about how the doctors know what she told them couldn't have been otherwise known. Again, no skeptic has looked at the documented facts in detail and found that it was even a real possibility that she could have known what she saw and heard without having this experience. How is that quote out of context?

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 10:01 AM, said:

The Gallup Organization and near death research studies estimates ADULT U.S. near death experiences at 13 million.

that just sounds like more spin. link? my understanding is that cases where a person is medically documented as having bodily functions cease for any extended amount of time and then restart, and then that person recounted an out-of-body experience are relatively rare. thousands at the most, certainly not millions. presumably if that poll is limited to cases that can be corroborated in any way the results would be radically different.

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The brain is purely physical. We can tell when it is not working at all.

so you are a neurological scientist then? or are you just saying that because a website with an agenda says it?

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This article doesn't go into great detail about how the doctors know what she told them couldn't have been otherwise known.

necessarily i assume.

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Again, no skeptic has looked at the documented facts in detail and found that it was even a real possibility that she could have known what she saw and heard without having this experience.

again, specifically what skeptics? do you have to buy the book to find out? : )

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How is that quote out of context?

you'll have to cite what work that quote is from since i'm not familiar with it, which presumably you can't since you just copied it from the above website. i'm assuming the quote was about experiencing physical evidence and not referring directly to metaphysical experiences, since einstien believed in natural (physical) determinism. please correct me if i'm wrong.

[WrongWay]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 8:14 AM, said:

Millions of people have reported having a near death experience where they view things outside their unconscious bodies. It is extremely likely that consciousness exists outside the body.

Wrong..... What an NDE shows is that when the brain is deprived of oxygen, certain areas of the brain shut down, causing a psychotic episode.We have definitions like "brain dead" where we can't measure brain fucntion, but that is because even when we "die" the individual cells of our body are still alive, sometimes for many hours... this is how we can take a heart out of someone, put it on ice, fly it to another city, then put it into a new person. The person it came out of is "dead" but his tissues are still alive.So, even while someone is "brain dead", their brain is still alive. The electro chemical activity may be so low that it doesn't register on our tests, but it is still there. And just because the conscious areas are shut down does not mean the other areas aren't still processing sights and sounds, and recording them as memories.When I say "psychotic episode", am I saying that people that have an NDE are crazy? NO!!!!!!!I'm saying that this is how the human brain works.Prayer and meditation are very similar.... When sitting quietly, ignoring outside input, focusing internally very strongly, one "shuts down" the portion of the brain that connects you to the outside world.... You feel like you're floating.Lots of drugs shut down certain areas of the brain and make people fell "outer body experiences".... where do you think the term "mind-expanding" drugs comes from? Do people really experience asteral projection? Can yogis really project into prior lives and levitate? When on Payote, do Native Americans really turn into animals? Is Deja Vu really experiencing something twice?Or is this all just a trick of the brain?

[zzz]

WrongWay, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 1:27 PM, said:

Wrong..... What an NDE shows is that when the brain is deprived of oxygen, certain areas of the brain shut down, causing a psychotic episode .

Not in this case. The lady accurately reported what was going on when she was physically dead by all available scientific measurements.

crowTrobot, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 12:57 PM, said:

that just sounds like more spin. link? my understanding is that cases where a person is medically documented as having bodily functions cease for any extended amount of time and then restart, and then that person recounted an out-of-body experience are relatively rare. thousands at the most, certainly not millions. presumably if that poll is limited to cases that can be corroborated in any way the results would be radically different.so you are a neurological scientist then? or are you just saying that because a website with an agenda says it?necessarily i assume.again, specifically what skeptics? do you have to buy the book to find out? : ) you'll have to cite what work that quote is from since i'm not familiar with it, which presumably you can't since you just copied it from the above website. i'm assuming the quote was about experiencing physical evidence and not referring directly to metaphysical experiences, since einstien believed in natural (physical) determinism. please correct me if i'm wrong.

Maybe the figure is off a couple million.There is no evidence suggesting the brain is something other than a physical thing.G.M Woerlee is a well known skeptic. His arguements regarding this case are very weak.So you disagree with what the quote says?

[WrongWay]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 11:43 AM, said:

Not in this case. The lady accurately reported what was going on when she was physically dead by all available scientific measurements.

She wan't dead by the scientific measure of the brain tissues being dead.... It was "shut down" for the most part, but it was not "dead".And, there is no reason to think she could not be recording sights and sounds into the memory storage portion of her brain....even with the consciousness turned off.I will turn this around. I saw a story on Discovery Channel of a guy that was sevearly brain damaged n a car crash.... he was listed as brain damaged to the point where a meaningful recovery was not possible. Like the veg in Florida that caused so much trouble a couple years ago. Well, this veg later regained the ability to speak.... So, the show was called "the man that slept for 16 years" or some such. He seems to be fully conscious. He recognizes some people and places..... He can carry on a conversation.BUT, his problem is that he is incapable of recordning any new memories. zip, zilch, nada. To him, it is 1984... You can tell him the current date, then 10 seconds later, ask him the date... He'll tell you 1984. He recognizes his mom, but not his daughter... Who is now in her 20s instead of diapers. In fact, he is constantly coming onto his daughter because he doesn't know, and can't be taught that it is her.In short, it is the mirror image of the NDE. In an NDE, consciousness is shut down, but memories are still recorded. In this case, he's conscious, but not able to record memories.So, if the "soul"... consciousness outsie the body... is the ability to record memories when not conscious, is this guy "soul-dead"? His body is alive, but his soul is dead?Well, the CT scans just show dead and wilted gooo where his short-term memory portion of his brain is supposed to be. And, short-term memory are the patterns used to build long-term... So, while he has consciousness and long-term memories, he can't create new memories.The brain works all funny like this.....So, I don't find it hard to believe that the memory portion of the brain could be recording short-term memories, then those short-term memories moved off to long-term, even when the consciousness is "shut down".

[crowTrobot]

zzz, on Monday, October 30th, 2006, 11:43 AM, said:

Maybe the figure is off a couple million.

maybe the website you are copying this stuff from is misrepresenting the poll.

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There is no evidence suggesting the brain is something other than a physical thing.

yes, and same is true of consciousness and memory.

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So you disagree with what the quote says?

without context the quote doesn't say anything.