Correct To Toss 2 Kings Preflop Here?

[Caught_clean 0]

After winning a 130 dollar pot with Kings, I go back to my other table and close it cause I was planning on quitting soon anyways. I go back to my other table where I just won the large pot (this is .25/.50 NLHE) and low and behold I'm delt two kings again. The guy I busted the hand before has rebought for 50, and it folds to him 2 off the button. He raises to 5, way to big but hes a maniac, so I presume he has any ace. I decide, and I admit this was wrong, to just flatcall and see a safe flop and bust him again probably, he payed me off the hand before with top pair against my kings full. So I flat call the 5 on the button and the BB, the only solid respectable player at the table raises to 20, a huge raise for the situation. He has 160 in front of him and has played so tight for the 2 hours I had been at the table. It goes back to maniac, and he pushes for 50. Now I know I probably should re raise all in here, but after grinding for 2 hours to build up that 130, I just couldnt decide what the Solid guy had in the BB. It had to only be Aces or Queens, so I mean its gonna be a 3 way pot, which I may only be a 60% favorite over the 2 other big hands. I decide to fold and the BB called with queens and Maniac turned over Ace king... What do you think about this play? Was I giving to much credit? I ususaly play 1/2 and above so I have forgotten abit of the preflop madness at these stakes. If they BB had say 40 I mean I insta push... thoughts?

[Canada 0]

After winning a 130 dollar pot with Kings, I go back to my other table and close it cause I was planning on quitting soon anyways. I go back to my other table where I just won the large pot (this is .25/.50 NLHE) and low and behold I'm delt two kings again. The guy I busted the hand before has rebought for 50, and it folds to him 2 off the button. He raises to 5, way to big but hes a maniac, so I presume he has any ace. I decide, and I admit this was wrong, to just flatcall and see a safe flop and bust him again probably, he payed me off the hand before with top pair against my kings full. So I flat call the 5 on the button and the BB, the only solid respectable player at the table raises to 20, a huge raise for the situation. He has 160 in front of him and has played so tight for the 2 hours I had been at the table. It goes back to maniac, and he pushes for 50. Now I know I probably should re raise all in here, but after grinding for 2 hours to build up that 130, I just couldnt decide what the Solid guy had in the BB. It had to only be Aces or Queens, so I mean its gonna be a 3 way pot, which I may only be a 60% favorite over the 2 other big hands. I decide to fold and the BB called with queens and Maniac turned over Ace king... What do you think about this play? Was I giving to much credit? I ususaly play 1/2 and above so I have forgotten abit of the preflop madness at these stakes. If they BB had say 40 I mean I insta push... thoughts?

It's all one big session. You choked.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Was I giving to much credit?

Yes.You had money and played not to lose.

[simo_8ball 1]

I think I fold. Messing about on Pokerstove makes it close to start with, but by weighting (tight BB won't usually reraise with AK and might just call with QQ, but will pretty much always reraise with AA/KK) I get this to be a close fold.

[Verdimme 0]

I think I fold. Messing about on Pokerstove makes it close to start with, but by weighting (tight BB won't usually reraise with AK and might just call with QQ, but will pretty much always reraise with AA/KK) I get this to be a close fold.

Simo..really? Have you ever folded them?

[simo_8ball 1]

Simo..really?

Yes.

Have you ever folded them?

Once. FWIW I was right (he showed).

[Royal_Tour 0]

Your flat call shows weakness vs a maniac, which is why solid player could hold any hand here.You should have raised to 15. Now anyone acting who raises would need a big hand.followed by maniac who pushes. Then it would be safe to assume you might be up against aces.depding on how much more it is to put solid player all in,if solid player has between 50 - 100. i put him in even if i think he has aces.if he has me covered and made the 3rd raise preflop, it is very possible to make the laydown.But because you didnt gain the correct info, you showed weakness to solid player who was able to make a big raise which made you think he held aces.

[simo_8ball 1]

I agree that reraising preflop was the right move. The problem isin this situation, I don't see a solid BB reraising to $20 with TT/JJ.The main thing about this hand is how deep we are. Even though we have the right equity over the ranges, if we shove here the BB would (I would expect) fold AKo and I'd say there is a reasonable chance he folds QQ or maybe AKs. He never folds AA.If we shove and he calls, we are playing a huge pot as an underdog.

[Royal_Tour 0]

I agree that reraising preflop was the right move. The problem isin this situation, I don't see a solid BB reraising to $20 with TT/JJ.The main thing about this hand is how deep we are. Even though we have the right equity over the ranges, if we shove here the BB would (I would expect) fold AKo and I'd say there is a reasonable chance he folds QQ or maybe AKs. He never folds AA.If we shove and he calls, we are playing a huge pot as an underdog.

Not too sure about this,If i'm in late position and i see maniac who just rebought raise to 5, and then a weak smooth call, and it gets to me and i hold anything from 10,10 - AA and AK, i make a raise hoping to get HU with the Maniac.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Your flat call shows weakness vs a maniac, which is why solid player could hold any hand here.

This was the first thing I thought when I read the post. I said, if he's a maniac and he's raising big, and you're only calling, the reraiser could be doing a squeeze play. A 20$ raise was NOT a big reraise. If anything it might have been too small because he's offering the original raiser 2-1 to call, and you'll be getting even better odds of the maniac flat calls. That being said, I don't think it was too big, but just the right size.

Not too sure about this,If i'm in late position and i see maniac who just rebought raise to 5, and then a weak smooth call, and it gets to me and i hold anything from 10,10 - AA and AK, i make a raise hoping to get HU with the Maniac.

Agree 100%The smooth call defined your hand as one that was likely weak. Any good player holding a solid hand (TT to AK) would probably want to reraise here.

[Royal_Tour 0]

Acid, are you seriously from Vegas?where and what do you usually play? as I make a trip to LV every so often

[DonkSlayer 1]

Given the title of the thread, isn't it mathematically NEVER correct to fold KK preflop and should only be read-dependent?

[mrdannyg 274]

the guy busted last hand, so unless i've played with him a ton, there's no way my read is solid enough to fold. the solid guy may be QQ-AA, or may be JJ-AA with AK for that range.its a 3-way pot, so 60% is a huge amount of equity.as someone said, its all one big session. you made a mistake here (don't post results btw), so try not to make it again, regardless of it being your last hand for the night.

[simo_8ball 1]

Not too sure about this,If i'm in late position and i see maniac who just rebought raise to 5, and then a weak smooth call, and it gets to me and i hold anything from 10,10 - AA and AK, i make a raise hoping to get HU with the Maniac.

I would do exactly the same (I'd do it with a huge range actually).There is an interesting relationship here in that a bad player would generally just call with a huge range of his hands and only reraise with his biggest hands. In addition to that, you would have no fold equity over his reraising range.Compare that to a good player. His reraising range would be wider, but you would also have more fold equity over his range. The interaction between the three variables (skill level, reraising range and folding range) of the two players is the key. We are told he is a solid respectable player, so I am assuming that his range for the $20 bet is quite narrow, and that he would also fold the weaker end of his range to a shove from us.If this is actually a call, I think it's pretty damn close. Being so deep, I fold. If I thought he would call with QQ/AK most of the time I would easily shove. I actually think that he would be reluctant to call off a huge portion of his stack preflop with AK or QQ.

[No_Neck 0]

I never do, but ISAP. If it is good enough for Sammy Farha it is good enough for me.

[Peak01 0]

Push here. You could easily get this heads up with the maniac. The QQ might have folded.

[simo_8ball 1]

Push here. You could easily get this heads up with the maniac. The QQ might have folded.

If you knew he had QQ you wouldn't want him to fold. The problem is quite the opposite - if he does fold QQ or AK with any kind of regularity, then this is a fold.This is a 25c/50c player who is up to $160. I don't think he would happily call off $130 with QQ or AK against such aggressive action. I think we would have a lot of fold equity over these hands. This decision also depends on whether he would bet $20 there with AK or QQ every time. I think he would smooth call with AK quite often preflop and sometimes with QQ, but never with AA.

[Peak01 0]

If you knew he had QQ you wouldn't want him to fold. The problem is quite the opposite - if he does fold QQ or AK with any kind of regularity, then this is a fold.This is a 25c/50c player who is up to $160. I don't think he would happily call off $130 with QQ or AK against such aggressive action. I think we would have a lot of fold equity over these hands. This decision also depends on whether he would bet $20 there with AK or QQ every time. I think he would smooth call with AK quite often preflop and sometimes with QQ, but never with AA.

Good point. I still get all excited and shove this everytime. haha!

[Caught_clean 0]

Hey, thanks for all the responses. Yea I totally agree with the notion my flat call was weak, but remember one thing, I was on the button and didnt expect the blinds to put in the re raise, that was my mistake. I never never ever ever play kings or aces slow, just I was 100% sure I could stack the maniac again if no ace flopped...I had seen him stack off with ace high twice. I never do this and yea I dont think I will again haha. I agree with everyone that I misplayed the hand, and its not that 130 bucks is alot of money but it was more the equity part. I was 100% sure the BB would call if I pushed, and if he had queens and maniac had ace king, Im only about a 58% favorite, I am getting equity but not HUGE equity like some of you are saying, that was my main concern with the hand. But thanks for the replies I wasent sure what to do after I smooth called, I realized I had ****ed up, and wasent sure If it was worth it getting in when im gonna lose almost half the time.

[simo_8ball 1]

If you were sure the BB would call a shove with AK or QQ then shoving is by far the correct play. Being even 40% in a 3 way pot gives you fantastic equity.

[Caught_clean 0]

Say I push, he calls, I am putting in 130 to win 180, not sure about that being fantastic equity being a 40% dog... I agree me being a 58% favorite I am getting decent equity but I still disagree its HUGE equity. Jeez its not that far off from a coin flip where im not getting 3 to 1. But Yea math wise I should of called, just disagree with the HUGE equity part.

[EurekaKid 0]

I've laid down kings pre-flop a number of times and have always been correct, this is not one of the situations where it is correct though. First of all, if you aren't willing to put the money into play leave as soon as you get that much in front of you. Secondly, while a situation where you should lay down your kings does usually involve a raise, re-raise and re-re-raise in this case you have to apply a discount becuase the maniac is involved. If the maniac has aces then its bad luck. To me, the solid players holding has a fair range, I mean all he has seen is a maniac raise and a smooth call from one player, if I am in the solid players seat I'm raising with TT-AA as well as AK and maybe AQs. You cannot live in fear at the table and if you run into aces in this situation then so be it, but in the LR the correct play is to push here I believe.

[Caught_clean 0]

Haha, yea I know I agree totally with moving in there, and If you read the first post I went to close the table cause I had planned to leave and was delt two kings again. Im not sure people can say the range of hands the solid player can have is large... I knew it could only be, because of how he was playing earlier and against the maniac earlier, aces or queens, possibly the other 2 kings. And I was right but let down when he flipped over 2 queens. Im just not sure getting less then 3 to 1 on not much more then a coinflip was worth it, I am gettind a decent price just not a auto call I think.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Edit; wrong thread.

[Caught_clean 0]

How is this the wrong thread?