Value Bet Or Push This River

[NoSup4U 0]

Checky has QQ here. Do you bet $15K as he does on the river, or do you push the guys full $30K in here?PokerStars Game #6759537060: Tournament #34146474, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (800/1600) - 2006/10/24 - 23:27:00 (ET)Table '34146474 154' 9-max Seat #1 is the buttonSeat 1: rouxpowa (63670 in chips) Seat 2: Bjorg009 (54869 in chips) Seat 3: bertssonj (17777 in chips) Seat 4: Mojo666 (46700 in chips) Seat 5: Maestro773 (39884 in chips) Seat 6: New Shawboy (55223 in chips) Seat 7: kidcisco24 (12425 in chips) Seat 8: checkymcfold (181625 in chips) rouxpowa: posts the ante 75Bjorg009: posts the ante 75bertssonj: posts the ante 75Mojo666: posts the ante 75Maestro773: posts the ante 75New Shawboy: posts the ante 75kidcisco24: posts the ante 75checkymcfold: posts the ante 75Bjorg009: posts small blind 800bertssonj: posts big blind 1600*** HOLE CARDS ***Mojo666: folds Maestro773: folds New Shawboy: folds kidcisco24: folds checkymcfold: raises 3200 to 4800rouxpowa: folds Bjorg009: calls 4000bertssonj: folds *** FLOP *** [Jc 7s 7d]Bjorg009: checks checkymcfold: bets 4800Bjorg009: calls 4800*** TURN *** [Jc 7s 7d] [5c]Bjorg009: checks checkymcfold: bets 11200Bjorg009: calls 11200*** RIVER *** [Jc 7s 7d 5c] [8h]Bjorg009: checks checkymcfold: bets 14400Bjorg009: folds vick4prez is connected checkymcfold collected 43800 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 43800 | Rake 0 Board [Jc 7s 7d 5c 8h]Seat 1: rouxpowa (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: Bjorg009 (small blind) folded on the RiverSeat 3: bertssonj (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 4: Mojo666 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: Maestro773 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: New Shawboy folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: kidcisco24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 8: checkymcfold collected (43800)

[holyfield 0]

i refuse to participate!!! format this garbage!!!

[TB17 0]

shove.holyfield: when you win 88k you get priviliges like posting in whatever context he feels like.

[NoSup4U 0]

LOL. Sorry for the formatting, it was requested to be thrown up for comments, but this was actually not even the board the requester wanted me to post it on. So heehaw me.carry on,Mark

[trystero 0]

I probably check behind on the river and bet less on the turn. This flop isn't draw intensive. What's villain calling our constant aggression with, a weak jack? TT, 99? I don't think it happens often enough. This looks every bit the big hand that's allowing us to hang ourselves.I'm really surprised that he c/f the river and did not c/r ai instead.

[NoSup4U 0]

I probably check behind on the river and bet less on the turn. This flop isn't draw intensive. What's villain calling our constant aggression with, a weak jack? TT, 99? I don't think it happens often enough. This looks every bit the big hand that's allowing us to hang ourselves.I'm really surprised that he c/f the river and did not c/r ai instead.

Checky was mad aggressive at this table. Lets say we are pretty sure we're ahead on the river here for the sake of this discussion.Mark

[navybuttons 16]

Checky was mad aggressive at this table. Lets say we are pretty sure we're ahead on the river here for the sake of this discussion.Mark

this is not a question of one hand. this is the question of the last fifty hands.it is TOTALLY read dependent and based on table dynamics.

[NoSup4U 0]

i refuse to participate!!! format this garbage!!!

Not that I care too much, but um....if you're going to take the high and mighty road about formatting, you might want to do it consistantly. I noticed in JC's post about his hand vs. JBax, you were the first to respond. And your response was very far from 'format this garbage'. And his hand history was the same as mine.Heehaw!Mark

[Actuary 3]

I'd bet more on flop.Get him all in on turn.As played, I'd shove the river.We're never folding this, obv.If I've been aggressive, I'd want to mimic that style here, generally.

[Zach6668 513]

Not that I care too much, but um....if you're going to take the high and mighty road about formatting, you might want to do it consistantly. I noticed in JC's post about his hand vs. JBax, you were the first to respond. And your response was very far from 'format this garbage'. And his hand history was the same as mine.Heehaw!Mark

Mark, don't worry about him, he's a troll.I'm the real conversion nazi.You and JC need to get your act together :PActually, in JC's post, it's interesting to see who the other players are, as a few of them were well-known, and it certainly was pertinent in the discussion, and only takes slightly more effort to keep them in there while converting...lol

[holyfield 0]

im no trollmy command stands, format or i dont participate.....im new to the format or bust cause, but ive picked up the flag

[Actuary 3]

im no trollmy command stands, format or i dont participate.....im new to the format or bust cause, but ive picked up the flag

I'm afraid your threat might have the opposite effect from what we would want.Perhaps: "Convert, and I'll stay away" would work better?

[trystero 0]

I'd bet more on flop.Get him all in on turn.As played, I'd shove the river.We're never folding this, obv.If I've been aggressive, I'd want to mimic that style here, generally.

What's your range for villain?

[Actuary 3]

What's your range for villain?

I'm not a range guy.in a $3.00 NL tourney buy in especially.preflop: Any pair. Any Ace. K9s+, KJ+, QJsflop: not big enough bet to defin much. Lean less toward PP though, as many pairs would raise here.turn: two clubs, weak J, 88-TT passive played hoping for chep showdwon and safe river...i dont' know

[sportz 0]

Thoughts on the fact that this could be AJ played soft by a headsy player? What about 89, with the turn giving a double gut, played passively. Just trying to figure out what could possibly call the flop and turn and fold the river. Possibly 66, 99, 1010?

[Actuary 3]

sportz Today, 10:32 AM Post #15 Poker Forum NewbieGroup: MembersPosts: 4Joined: August 10th, 2005From: Faber CollegeMember No.: 8,858 *******slow down!get a lifegeeze.

[sportz 0]

*******slow down!get a lifegeeze.

My apologies just thought it was interesting to reverse the process and view it from the villian's standpoint. I'll return to lurking for another year+

[Acid_Knight 2]

I'd bet more on flop.Get him all in on turn.As played, I'd shove the river.We're never folding this, obv.If I've been aggressive, I'd want to mimic that style here, generally.

I think the way the hand has played out, the villain has either a weak pair or a gutshot that he refused to get rid of.I like the bet on the river because it's likely that the 8 paired a number of the hands that the villain might be holding and it might get a call out of him for the cheap price.I see no reason to shove the river. We lose value on hands that would pay us off and we get killed when he flips over quad 7s - not that he'll be doing that...

[NoSup4U 0]

First off, sorry on the formatting. Checkymcfold, who many of you probably know is a regular on FCP, was involved in the hand. He was nutbarring in a small rebuy so yeah, you won't see any big exciting names And I was involved in a ton of stuff and just didn't take the time to format it down. So forgive my laziness, and thanks to everyone for responding.My take, as I expressed when the hand went down: I shove the river. I see so many players not getting full value from their hands on the river. In this case, we had a crazy image, and I believe the villian was calling down with any pair on the flop and turn.On the river, if we bet 15, and he pushes, I think we're probably committed to calling. So if we're calling there, then pushing shouldn't worry us. So now to value: In general, I see players making a decision to call or not call. There are some times when he might call with middle pair for half his remaining stack but not his full stack, but most players I think either fold or call, regardless of your bet size. And the larger the bet, the more they think you're bluffing, which is why they were calling down in the first place. I think the long run value is better by pushing.Thats just my take. I'm far from an expert, but thats how it felt to me at the time.gl all,Mark

[throwemaway 0]

First off, sorry on the formatting. Checkymcfold, who many of you probably know is a regular on FCP, was involved in the hand. He was nutbarring in a small rebuy so yeah, you won't see any big exciting names And I was involved in a ton of stuff and just didn't take the time to format it down. So forgive my laziness, and thanks to everyone for responding.My take, as I expressed when the hand went down: I shove the river. I see so many players not getting full value from their hands on the river. In this case, we had a crazy image, and I believe the villian was calling down with any pair on the flop and turn.On the river, if we bet 15, and he pushes, I think we're probably committed to calling. So if we're calling there, then pushing shouldn't worry us. So now to value: In general, I see players making a decision to call or not call. There are some times when he might call with middle pair for half his remaining stack but not his full stack, but most players I think either fold or call, regardless of your bet size. And the larger the bet, the more they think you're bluffing, which is why they were calling down in the first place. I think the long run value is better by pushing.Thats just my take. I'm far from an expert, but thats how it felt to me at the time.gl all,Mark

I was about to make a post that said pretty much the same thing.. If we bet 15K and then he raises the rest of his stack, were obviously calling, so who if by slim chance he has us beat, it doesn't matter what way the chips get in the pot...Checking behind on the river is weak/tight so thats not an optionI think the jam looks like more like a bluff..Dooooo it

[WhatArunAA 0]

easy push checky.. you machine you