Qq's Early In A Turbo Sng

[Ice_W0lf 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP1 (t2595)Hero (t1470)MP3 (t1485)CO (t1970)Button (t1340)SB (t1850)BB (Villan) (t1335)UTG (t1320)UTG+1 (t1635)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q , Q . 3 folds, Hero raises to t200, 4 folds, Villan raises to t450, Hero raises to t700, Villan raises to t1050, Hero ?.This is about 15 hands in.. so no real reads yet. Also this is a micro turbo sng, so players are generally weak. Does hero fold this with half his stack in the pot or push and hope?

[Ouch-8s 5]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP1 (t2595)Hero (t1470)MP3 (t1485)CO (t1970)Button (t1340)SB (t1850)BB (Villan) (t1335)UTG (t1320)UTG+1 (t1635)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q , Q . 3 folds, Hero raises to t200, 4 folds, Villan raises to t450, Hero raises to t700, Villan raises to t1050, Hero ?.This is about 15 hands in.. so no real reads yet. Also this is a micro turbo sng, so players are generally weak. Does hero fold this with half his stack in the pot or push and hope?

Hero doesn't do this, for starters.

[pokerfan1080 0]

I push, for a few reasons.....1. You have a great hand and this is a turbo. The turbo format requires us to accumulate chips faster.2. It's early, if you are beat you move on to another one.3. It's low buy-in.But, I suck at SnG's lately.

[Ouch-8s 5]

I push, for a few reasons.....1. You have a great hand and this is a turbo. The turbo format requires us to accumulate chips faster.2. It's early, if you are beat you move on to another one.3. It's low buy-in.But, I suck at SnG's lately.

#3 is an argument against pushing, I'd say. This play at low limits screams AA. The other two reasons are good though, and you are commited. Push, and either get it over with and move on, or double up.

[gobears 0]

Tourney buyin and structure are the keys here. This is an autopush for me due to the fact that:1: Turbo SNG2: Microstakes3: 1/2 your stack is already in the potIf this was a regular MTT, the 4th raise means aces a very high % of the time. You're getting 3.2-1 on the call but you need 4-1 if villain has aces/kings. Your and Villain's M of less than 20 makes this tough to play as your reraise to 700 puts 1/2 your stack into the pot. I would just call the first raise since you have position on the BB and be allin if no ace or king hits the flop.

[Ouch-8s 5]

If this was a regular MTT, the 4th raise means aces a very high % of the time. You're getting 3.2-1 on the call but you need 4-1 if villain has aces/kings.

Turbo SNG, the 4th raise doesn't mean this? I don't play them often, but really...

Your and Villain's M of less than 20 makes this tough to play as your reraise to 700 puts 1/2 your stack into the pot. I would just call the first raise since you have position on the BB and be allin if no ace or king hits the flop

agreed

[pokerfan1080 0]

#3 is an argument against pushing, I'd say. This play at low limits screams AA. The other two reasons are good though, and you are commited. Push, and either get it over with and move on, or double up.

I disagree with your point about AA playing this way at low stakes. Low stakes they push AA right from the get go. Only the more "sophisticated" players will play AA this way.

[Ice_W0lf 0]

Hero doesn't do this, for starters.

Yeah I admit that was a terrible raise...

I disagree with your point about AA playing this way at low stakes. Low stakes they push AA right from the get go. Only the more "sophisticated" players will play AA this way.

I dont know about that, a few times this week after only a few tournies i've been knocked out or crippled by people playing AA this same way.

[Ouch-8s 5]

I disagree with your point about AA playing this way at low stakes. Low stakes they push AA right from the get go. Only the more "sophisticated" players will play AA this way.

Are you saying that min-raising/re-re-raising with AA is a sophisticated play?

[pokerfan1080 0]

Yeah I admit that was a terrible raise... I dont know about that, a few times this week after only a few tournies i've been knocked out or crippled by people playing AA this same way.

I do know about that.I've played about 375 SnG's mostly at the $5 level (which is still a small sample) and I see it more times than I see someone play them as you encountered here.You may well be up against A's, it just hasn't been my experience at low stakes to see them played this way. And, pushing A's in the $5 SnG's has been +ev in my experience as well. Most of the players at this level are not very experienced and tend to call with any A.

Are you saying that min-raising/re-re-raising with AA is a sophisticated play?

yep, I'm a noob and ISAP.Wouldn't you? If not, why?

[Ouch-8s 5]

And, pushing A's in the $5 SnG's has been +ev in my experience as well. Most of the players at this level are not very experienced and tend to call with any A.

Right, pushing with AA works because the opposition tends to call with anything. Why would you advocate getting fancy and min-raising when pushing gets more chips into the pot when you're a big favourite?

[WrongWay 0]

Let me take a shot, and others can tell me wheer I'm wrong.I like the 4X the big blind raise. I don't like the minimum re-re-raise raise after he has re-raised you. There are some 2500 card combinations, but only about 100 card combinations that even a weak player would re-raise with (AK to A10 or pocket pair). 12 of those have you domnated and another 16 are a coin flip.I think I raise to 1000. To me, this is just as good as an all-in as he'll be pot committed and know his entire stack is on the line. Hope for a call. If he has one of the 12 hands that has you dominated, well, you're just going to go broke on a hand like this. If he has pocket pair lower than yours, then he's gong broke. If he has Ax and A comes on the flop, then there is still time to escape with a few chips (almost 10X the big blind).By raising the minimum, you've handed the oppertunity to raise to 1000 to him.At this point, I think you have to call and hope there is no A on the flop. If there is, run away. If not, push the rest of your chips in.Okay, tear me apart.

[Ouch-8s 5]

I think I raise to 1000. To me, this is just as good as an all-in as he'll be pot committed and know his entire stack is on the line. Hope for a call.

Why would he be pot committed but you not be?

[Briguy 0]

Just 3-bet all-in preflop. QQ is the nutz in a low buy-in turbo.

[pokerfan1080 0]

Right, pushing with AA works because the opposition tends to call with anything. Why would you advocate getting fancy and min-raising when pushing gets more chips into the pot when you're a big favourite?

At this level you can play A's by pushing preflop. At a higher level it is easy to see through the play and you need to play them differently (more "sophisticated").And, beginners tend to overplay hands like this and they push PF instead of drawing chips slowly into the pot.I'm not advocating playing them more sophisticated at this level. I simply stated you don't see them played this way very often at this level.

[Ouch-8s 5]

At this level you can play A's by pushing preflop. At a higher level it is easy to see through the play and you need to play them differently (more "sophisticated").And, beginners tend to overplay hands like this and they push PF instead of drawing chips slowly into the pot.I'm not advocating playing them more sophisticated at this level. I simply stated you don't see them played this way very often at this level.

okay

[WrongWay 0]

Why would he be pot committed but you not be?

I'm putting him on AK, AQ, AJ... something like that. There are 50 of those hands to 12 AA, KK combinations. Or, he may have a pair lower than ours... Again, many more of those than the two over pairs. Now, the flop comes A.... He bets at us. We can fold because the hands we put him on have us beat.... or at least the hands he should be putting us on would have him beat but he bet anyway. We'd have 2 outs for 9:1 against hitting the trip Q on the next 2 cards. 5:1 pot odds we can get away from.Flip it around. We raised a standard 4x the big blind. He also has to put us on a big hand. Something like AK, AQ, AJ.... same reason I put him on those hands. They are far more common than AA, KK, QQ. So, the flop comes all ragged. He checks and we bet. There is a likelyhood that we are bluffing or semi-bluffing or have a pair under his cards. How is he going to get away from a pot that contains 2500+ chips when it only costs him 500 to call. Even if he just has two overcards to the board, he's 3:1 to hit a bigger pair and he's getting 5:1 return.

[Ouch-8s 5]

I'm putting him on AK, AQ, AJ... something like that. There are 50 of those hands to 12 AA, KK combinations. Or, he may have a pair lower than ours... Again, many more of those than the two over pairs. Now, the flop comes A.... He bets at us. We can fold because the hands we put him on have us beat.... or at least the hands he should be putting us on would have him beat but he bet anyway. We'd have 2 outs for 9:1 against hitting the trip Q on the next 2 cards. 5:1 pot odds we can get away from.Flip it around. We raised a standard 4x the big blind. He also has to put us on a big hand. Something like AK, AQ, AJ.... same reason I put him on those hands. They are far more common than AA, KK, QQ. So, the flop comes all ragged. He checks and we bet. There is a likelyhood that we are bluffing or semi-bluffing or have a pair under his cards. How is he going to get away from a pot that contains 2500+ chips when it only costs him 500 to call. Even if he just has two overcards to the board, he's 3:1 to hit a bigger pair and he's getting 5:1 return.

If we are going to re-raise, we should push. There's something to be said about this line IMO.If we smooth call, we can get away from the hand if an A hits. A bit safer. But we don't get paid off by AK, etc, this way.If we raise to 1000, we have no FE on a subsequent push, and we cannot fold with more than 2/3 of our chips in.

[Actuary 3]

This is about 15 hands in.. so no real reads yet. Also this is a micro turbo sng, so players are generally weak. Does hero fold this with half his stack in the pot or push and hope?

Hero shoves all in after he is raised to 450Hero does not min raise to 700More worse hands will call your shove at the 450 level because they will put you on a wider range than when you raise to 700 and shove eventually. Given you "got more info" well the pot and your odds are so juicy now...would I rely on that info and fold? No.This opinion comes from1- you have QQ2- it's micro3- it's turbo4- you have QQnow I shall read 2 pages.Can't imagine the debate,

[trystero 0]

1- you have QQ2- it's micro3- it's turbo4- you have QQ

I also push after his reraise, but what's your line OOP here if this were a $30 normal-paced SNG? Push? Call and check/fold or c/r depending on flop?

[WrongWay 0]

I agree that if we're going to rasie we should "push". However, I think that 1000 is a push. Yes, we can fold with 2/3rds of our chips in the pot because if an A hits we're getting horrid odds to put the rest of our chips in, and we're still at 10x the BB if we fold. If blinds were 100+, then I dont' think we can fold with only 450-500 ships left. With the blinds at 50, I still think we can get away from pocket Q if an A hits the flop.I know everyone is all about "fold equity" these days, but I'm still playing this strong pre-flop hoping for a call and no ace on the flop.Then again, I suck at poker.An aside... I was reading HoH vol 1 at lunch today and hit sample hand 4-6. In this example hand, we're dealt QQ and have a limper and raiser in front of us, then 2 that call the raise. He recommends a big reraise to narrow the field. In this example, the original raiser comes back over the top all-in and one of the original callers calls. Call or not?Conclusion... unless you have serious reason to beleive you're against AA or KK, get all your chips in with QQ.In his example he was up against AK and AK. For our example, I see no reason to assume we're not also up against AK, AQ, AJ type hand. I'd still push this to 1000, hope for a call, then fold if an A falls on the flop and he goes all-in in front of us.

[Ouch-8s 5]

An aside... I was reading HoH vol 1 at lunch today and hit sample hand 4-6. In this example hand, we're dealt QQ and have a limper and raiser in front of us, then 2 that call the raise. He recommends a big reraise to narrow the field.

I guarantee he does not say to raise 2/3 of your chips, planning to fold if an A hits. You can achieve the same thing by smooth calling if you are scared to get it all in.

Conclusion... unless you have serious reason to beleive you're against AA or KK, get all your chips in with QQ.

Right. Raising to 1000 is not the same thing.

[Actuary 3]

I also push after his reraise, but what's your line OOP here if this were a $30 normal-paced SNG? Push? Call and check/fold or c/r depending on flop?

With the raise to 450And calling leaving me with My Stack = Pot.I probably shove.If he has AK an A/K will flop 33% of the timeIf he has JJ- an A/K will flop 43% of the time.And if he has AA/KK an A/K will flop 33% of the time.So what does all that mean?About a 1/3 of the time we have him crushed with an over pair, we're checkfolding the flop. 2/3 of the time when we are crushed anyway preflop by AA./KK, we'll get it al in on the flop anyway.2/3 of the time when he has AK, we'll give him a chance to get away from it. (the more aggressive the opponent, the more I'd entertain that we can stack AK on a "safe" flop. But we have few reads this early)I would still shove in this case.****************If I had TT/JJ here.I flat call the re-raise.

[tskillz187 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP1 (t2595)Hero (t1470)MP3 (t1485)CO (t1970)Button (t1340)SB (t1850)BB (Villan) (t1335)UTG (t1320)UTG+1 (t1635)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q , Q . 3 folds, Hero raises to t200, 4 folds, Villan raises to t450, Hero raises to t700, Villan raises to t1050, Hero ?.This is about 15 hands in.. so no real reads yet. Also this is a micro turbo sng, so players are generally weak. Does hero fold this with half his stack in the pot or push and hope?

I've read no replies, but this isn't even close, IMO. You have QQ it's heads up and your stacks aren't super deep, you are playing for all of your chips.Stop betting like a loser. What is the purpose of your reraise? It serves 0 purpose. You should stick in a real reraise that way you aren't giving him odds to call with any 2 cards in the deck to outdraw on you.

[offset 0]

He has any Ax nearly the same number of times as AA. He has something even worse at least 10% of the time.Next time just push when he reraises the first time.