149 replies to this topic

[SilentSnow]

A lot of us suspected things were getting worse in America for a while now.

But our glorious leader made things official this week.

America now prefers totalitarian methods to the bill of rights and long established legal principles..

It is now legal to arrest, torture, hold without a trial, and murder American citizens.

http://americaabroad.tpmcafe.com/blog/jose...es_depend_on_it



Everyone that will read it probably has, so I guess Ill update slightly now that I dont need the curiosity inducing headline. If anyone reading this wants a summary, read my post on the last page. Ok, nevermind- I cant figure out how to change titles.

[timwakefield]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/opinion/19thu1.html

[Courtsdad]

Your link lost credability as soon as someone from the ACLU was quoted. So exactly which one of your rights was taken away? Are you at Gitmo? are you a foreign fighter? Pleese elaborate.

Personally i think MY rights as an American were taken away the moment that the ACLU or people like yourself take up arms against my country out of a self loathing hatred of your country.

BTW while you have your tinfoil hat on you may want to tell me why the evil Bush Supreme court decided to rewrite the Geneva Convention so that applies to combatants who belong to no country and why, if this is a mass conspiracy, would dictator Bush allow this to happen.

Oh and please don't use the Hitler analogy. It only mkaes you look ignorant.

[strategy]

It is now legal to arrest, torture, and murder without a trial American citizens

Incorrect. This is a link to a little explanation behind why it doesn't apply to American citizens, which comes from paul phillips' journal. There are enough reasons to hate this without exaggerating and making Hitler references.

Personally i think MY rights as an American were taken away the moment that the ACLU or people like yourself take up arms against my country out of a self loathing hatred of your country.

Thanks for the laugh. Was this on the Factor tonight?

[Courtsdad]

Incorrect. This is a link to a little explanation behind why it doesn't apply to American citizens, which comes from paul phillips' journal. There are enough reasons to hate this without exaggerating and making Hitler references.
Thanks for the laugh. Was this on the Factor tonight?

Sorry I don't watch it. Just my opinion. When the ACLU is selective in who they go after they lose their credability. (ie: illegals getting the same rights as citizens or defending every religion EXCEPT christianity which is the predominat religion here. Please look up the case of the muslim call to prayer being ok but Christmas displays being unethical.)

I just don't have much tolerance for uninformed liberal rants that think this country is so terrible. They need to get off of their asses and go fro a trip around the world to really see what oppression is. If you can point out a country that has freed more people or given out more aid to the other countries of the world , please do so.

[InsanityCubed]

Sorry I don't watch it. Just my opinion. When the ACLU is selective in who they go after they lose their credability. (ie: illegals getting the same rights as citizens or defending every religion EXCEPT christianity which is the predominat religion here. Please look up the case of the muslim call to prayer being ok but Christmas displays being unethical.)

I just don't have much tolerance for uninformed liberal rants that think this country is so terrible. They need to get off of their asses and go fro a trip around the world to really see what oppression is. If you can point out a country that has freed more people or given out more aid to the other countries of the world , please do so.

I hate uninformed people too.

[SAM_Hard8]

Shouldn’t it be “Hitler couldn’t be more proud.”

[Courtsdad]

I hate uninformed people too.

care to elaborate?

Just to help you on your search.....

The US share of the UN budget
The United States is assessed for the regular budget at the ceiling rate of 22 percent, which in 2006 was $423,464,855 of the total $1,924,840,250. This works out to be a contribution of about $1.42 per American citizen, according to 2006 census data. Japan, the second largest contributor to the regular budget at 19.47 percent, pays $374,727,900 or about $3.94 per citizen in comparison.

For the peacekeeping budget, the US is assessed 27 percent. In 2005, this amounted to about $1.28 billion, but by the end of 2005, the US still owed $521 million of that $1.28 billion to the UN for peacekeeping dues.


We are so evil that we even support the corrupt UN who does their best at every turn to undermine the US. So while the Secretary General does nothing about the Oil for Food scandal we STILL send money to their major programs.

So yes we truly are an evil horrible dictatorship that does nothing for anyone. What a horrible horrible country.

[strategy]

Sorry I don't watch it. Just my opinion. When the ACLU is selective in who they go after they lose their credability. [1] (ie: illegals getting the same rights as citizens or defending every religion EXCEPT christianity which is the predominat religion here. Please look up the case of the muslim call to prayer being ok but Christmas displays being unethical.)

I just don't have much tolerance for uninformed liberal rants that think this country is so terrible. [2] They need to get off of their asses and go fro a trip around the world to really see what oppression is. If you can point out a country that has freed more people or given out more aid to the other countries of the world , please do so.

1. A fair point, but I wasn't arguing that at all; the ACLU openly admits that they have a bias for the minority. You said that the ACLU hates America. The ACLU (and other watchdog organizations) play a vital role in making sure that our government doesn't overstep its bounds. I am not a huge fan of everything the ACLU has done, but one must recognize that those types of groups aren't motivated by hate.

2. There are offenders from both sides of the aisle. A good example from the right would be the claim that the ACLU hates America.

[TheCinciKid]

Your link lost credability as soon as someone from the ACLU was quoted. So exactly which one of your rights was taken away? Are you at Gitmo? are you a foreign fighter? Pleese elaborate.

Personally i think MY rights as an American were taken away the moment that the ACLU or people like yourself take up arms against my country out of a self loathing hatred of your country.

BTW while you have your tinfoil hat on you may want to tell me why the evil Bush Supreme court decided to rewrite the Geneva Convention so that applies to combatants who belong to no country and why, if this is a mass conspiracy, would dictator Bush allow this to happen.

Oh and please don't use the Hitler analogy. It only mkaes you look ignorant.

It's people like you that have made me give up almost all hope for our country and for the political process in general. As long as people vote with blinders this big on, we stand no chance.

The day we decided to start giving up our freedoms was the day that we stopped being the greatest country in the world.

Let me share with you a couple of quotes from our Founding Fathers....

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -Thomas Paine

"This country will not be a good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a good place for all of us to live in." -Theodore Roosevelt

(I ask you, how could a country that is willing to torture ANYONE ever be a good place to live in?)

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

[Courtsdad]

1. A fair point, but I wasn't arguing that at all; the ACLU openly admits that they have a bias for the minority. You said that the ACLU hates America. The ACLU (and other watchdog organizations) play a vital role in making sure that our government doesn't overstep its bounds. I am not a huge fan of everything the ACLU has done, but one must recognize that those types of groups aren't motivated by hate.

2. There are offenders from both sides of the aisle. A good example from the right would be the claim that the ACLU hates America.

Didn't mean to say that the ACLU hated us although i beleive there are individuals in the organization who would love to see the US have its balls removed,lol. I was refering the liberal haters.

I agree that you need organization like the ACLU but I just feel that there hypocracy outweighs their usefullness currently. There are other organizations that do a better job of policing with les of an agenda.

It's people like you that have made me give up almost all hope for our country and for the political process in general. As long as people vote with blinders this big on, we stand no chance.

The day we decided to start giving up our freedoms was the day that we stopped being the greatest country in the world.

Let me share with you a couple of quotes from our Founding Fathers....

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -Thomas Paine

"This country will not be a good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a good place for all of us to live in." -Theodore Roosevelt

(I ask you, how could a country that is willing to torture ANYONE ever be a good place to live in?)

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Trust me I dont need a civics lesson or a lesson on torture. So from your quotes I am guessing we should not even bother to try to catch or question the "bad guys" because we may infringe upon their "freedoms"? so basically its a free for all?

I am curious which rights you've lost.

Please define torture.

What level of questioning is appropraite to save 100-1000- 100000000 lives?

[myenemy]

Trust me I dont need a civics lesson or a lesson on torture. So from your quotes I am guessing we should not even bother to try to catch or question the "bad guys" because we may infringe upon their "freedoms"? so basically its a free for all?

I am curious which rights you've lost.

Please define torture.

What level of questioning is appropraite to save 100-1000- 100000000 lives?

None. You're a criminal.
The world's a bad place and sometimes you have to do bad things to keep up. Personally, I sleep a little better knowing someone out there is being tortured to keep me and mine safe. Call it what you want, but its the truth.

[SAM_Hard8]

1. A fair point, but I wasn't arguing that at all; the ACLU openly admits that they have a bias for the minority. You said that the ACLU hates America. The ACLU (and other watchdog organizations) play a vital role in making sure that our government doesn't overstep its bounds. I am not a huge fan of everything the ACLU has done, but one must recognize that those types of groups aren't motivated by hate.

2. There are offenders from both sides of the aisle. A good example from the right would be the claim that the ACLU hates America.

I hate the ACLU and I thank Dog they are there!

[TheCinciKid]

Didn't mean to say that the ACLU hated us although i beleive there are individuals in the organization who would love to see the US have its balls removed,lol. I was refering the liberal haters.

I agree that you need organization like the ACLU but I just feel that there hypocracy outweighs their usefullness currently. There are other organizations that do a better job of policing with les of an agenda.
Trust me I dont need a civics lesson or a lesson on torture. So from your quotes I am guessing we should not even bother to try to catch or question the "bad guys" because we may infringe upon their "freedoms"? so basically its a free for all?

I am curious which rights you've lost.

Please define torture.

What level of questioning is appropraite to save 100-1000- 100000000 lives?

If only I knew enough to enough to really get into this argument. Then again, what's the point really, it's not like I'm going to change your mind. If you were open-minded you wouldn't think the way you do.

Unfortunately, I'm not up on things as much as I used to be, mostly because if I was it would just make me sick and I know there's very little I can do about it anyway. I'll point to the government's new ability to wiretap without warrants and I'll point the "enemy combatants" that have simply been designated this term then held for long periods of time without any kind of trial or even real charge brought against them. The right's biggest proponent on the Supreme Court, Antonin Scalia, even had a major problem with this one.

Torture by the way is NEVER, I repeat NEVER ok in any instance. It doesn't even work anyway. You can oftentimes end up torturing people into false confessions (fat lot of good that does). I will define torture the same way the Geneva Convention does, whatever that definition is and be certain that Bush and the boys would be more than happy to torture "enemy combatants."

A wise man once said that a government should be afraid of it's people, not the other way around. Frankly, right now I'm more afraid of what the government is going to do next than some mythical threat of a terrorist attack. Hell, if Bush had spent a little less time on the ranch in Texas and a little more time governing 9/11 may not have happened. And, regardless...we've now lost more people fighting a useless war in Iraq than we did on 9/11.

[DonkSlayer]

I like when people say "if you were more open-minded..." Do open-minded people thusly never make up their minds? Do they make up their minds, but change it the second a new idea comes up? Heh.

I don't think Silent likes the Constitution to begin with, so I don't really know why it bothers him in that aspect.

If an American citizen is held without trial, it's illegal according to the Constitution. The Supreme Court has already struck it down once, and regardless of what Congress passes, it will be struck down again if whatever it says denies citizens the right to a quick and fair trial, period.

IF people aren't American citizens, why would our Constitution apply to them?

[keith crime]

So cool as an american citizen i guess we're all happy to torture and kill anyone not american - this makes me feel proud to be free

[SAM_Hard8]

Hell, if Bush had spent a little less time on the ranch in Texas and a little more time governing 9/11 may not have happened.

good post untill this rediculose statement.

[mk]

zero good will come out of this thread.

the fact that is most bothersome is that the law was put in place to acquit for crimes that have already been committed. not so good.

[DonkSlayer]

So cool as an american citizen i guess we're all happy to torture and kill anyone not american - this makes me feel proud to be free

Yeah because that's what we're doing right now...only 5.9 billion people left.

[keith crime]

whether you are a terrorist freedom fighter or a war criminal depends on whether you win in the long run