Flopping The Nuts Is Not Always A Good Thing

[predator06 0]

What is your play on the rainbow broadway flop OOP on the raiser?Anyone call the push on the turn? Could he have put me on the straight and just called the raise to bluff the scare card?Full Tilt Poker Game #1110822729: Table Heidi - $5/$10 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 21:18:51 ET - 2006/10/16 Seat 1: Dave Kingman ($884.25) Seat 2: A2nogood ($389.25) Seat 3: alans nutz ($421.75) Seat 4: predator06 ($1 000) Seat 5: giant catch ($999.50) Seat 6: nitsud ($807.75) Seat 8: QUEEN KAZU ($523) Seat 9: Uncle Doey ($212) alans nutz posts the small blind of $5predator06 posts the big blind of $10The button is in seat #2Holecards:Dealt to predator06 [Ac Kh Qc Jh]giant catch foldsnitsud foldsQUEEN KAZU foldsUncle Doey foldsDave Kingman raises to $30A2nogood foldsalans nutz calls $25predator06 calls $20Flop:[ Ad Js Th]alans nutz checkspredator06 checksDave Kingman bets $90alans nutz foldspredator06 raises to $260Dave Kingman calls $170Turn:[ Ad Js Th] [Td]predator06 checksDave Kingman bets $594.25, and is all in

[navybuttons 16]

i think you guys have the same hand. i'd play it his way if i flopped broadway.but what can you beat here? if you do have the same hand he may even have diamonds or a 10 and have a better freeroll than you.

[bdc30 0]

He potted it preflop, so we hopefully can't put him on a ten.Two aces are a possibility though.Tough spot. I prolly call though. (if you're properly rolled...)

[rwood 0]

playing this hand OOP really sucks, a lot of opponents will pot that turn when checked to if you have shown you play solid and can fold. you are drawing stone dead to AAxx, you are drawing slim to JJ, or AT, JT. you arent beating ANY hands here except a stone bluff. i think i can find the fold button here...anyone think leading the flop has any merit? it could go bet/raise/reraise and he can get his nuts in on the flopor it could go bet/call, less invested if scare card comes on turn.AA2x is a very real possibility here, espescially if his x=3 for the bd nld

[checkymcfold 0]

i reraise this preflop to about 80 to ensure isolation and to take charge of the hand.i pot the flop and try to get it all in there.as played, i bet 1/2 pot on the turn and fold to a shove. he played it exactly like a set would play it--pretty sure he has kings or aces, but you checking the turn is just asking to get potted. you have to put some kind of bet out there to make sure that a raise would be a set that boated up.

[navybuttons 16]

He potted it preflop, so we hopefully can't put him on a ten.Two aces are a possibility though.Tough spot. I prolly call though. (if you're properly rolled...)

i didn't see viliian potted pf. now it looks like aces to me.i agree w/ checky on the leading for half a pot on the turn.i'm not sure i like the re-pot p/f.

[checkymcfold 0]

i didn't see viliian potted pf. now it looks like aces to me.i agree w/ checky on the leading for half a pot on the turn.i'm not sure i like the re-pot p/f.

most of the reason i reraise preflop is to figure out if he's got aces (on second thought, we don't have a type of hand that needs to isolate so much, but taking charge is always a good thing--40 or 50 is probably good for that rather than 80). and unless he's got a suited ah, we're in pretty good shape even if he does. if he's a tight player that only will open raise with big pairs, then we don't need to reraise here because we already have our read.the read here is important precisely because of flops like this--if we hit a flop hard, half the raising-type hands likely made a set and we need to know this as cheaply as possible. it's much cheaper to find this out for 50-80 bucks preflop (or even 200 if he repops) than it is to find out for 500 on the turn as played.

[predator06 0]

I have learned one thing. It is tough to play a straight OOP deep stacked. I may have just called the flop bet and check raised the turn on a safe card or just folded on the T. Looking back, I don't think there is that much that I can do in this situation I put myself into. I strongly disagree with 1/2 pot on the turn. That would be $300 into a $600 pot. If he pushes, am I not committed on the last $300? Villian told me last night he had AKT2. I actually believe him. Unfortunately, a T on the river was his ONLY out. Any other card, and I pot the turn with the nuts and win the $600 pot or have him drawing to very few outs for $1200.

[KVOM 0]

I had a pretty similar situation recently, holding K1097 unsuited in BB. I got to see the flop for free: QJ8 with 2 diamonds. I potted and got one caller, but when a diamond came on the turn I had to check/fold to a pot bet.I debated afterwards whether check/callingthe flop might be better. However since K or 10 can make a higher straight and any other card either pairs the board or makes a 2-card low. I think that giving a free card is an error.

[Chamonyx 0]

This is why Broadway hands can be tough to play OOP: when you act, you tend to give away your hand. Here you had redraws though, so it is not so bad, although you really want to be able to get yoru stack committed: flat calling flop and CR turn is better. Yes, in theory you can make more by pushing fron the getgo, but in practice you win more and lose less on the button - so absorb the inverse of that.

[Wintermute 0]

Why not raise the max on the flop if you're going to c/r? Also, make up your mind on your action before you act on the turn. If you're going to put another dime into the pot, then lead, don't check-call. Check-calling is definitely bad because you're giving up on the fold equity you have those times when he only has broadway and you can pick up the pot with a bet---I don't see this guy showing up there with total air (which is the only reason you'd want to c/c... to induce a bluff). If you think he has AA/JJ/AT/JT, then check and fold to his bet.

[predator06 0]

Why not raise the max on the flop if you're going to c/r? Also, make up your mind on your action before you act on the turn. If you're going to put another dime into the pot, then lead, don't check-call. Check-calling is definitely bad because you're giving up on the fold equity you have those times when he only has broadway and you can pick up the pot with a bet---I don't see this guy showing up there with total air (which is the only reason you'd want to c/c... to induce a bluff). If you think he has AA/JJ/AT/JT, then check and fold to his bet.

I didn't raise max on the flop check/raise because I REALLY wanted a call even OOP and was willing to go all the way on the rainbow flop with my hand unless a T came up. I thought that this was the best way to get his stack in. Assuming he didnt have a T, this turn only happens 8%, and if he did have one ~5%. I would have been willing to push on the turn with ANY other card including the non-nut boat and take my chances. Yeah?Thx WM.

[Wintermute 0]

I didn't raise max on the flop check/raise because I REALLY wanted a call even OOP and was willing to go all the way on the rainbow flop with my hand unless a T came up. I thought that this was the best way to get his stack in. Assuming he didnt have a T, this turn only happens 8%, and if he did have one ~5%. I would have been willing to push on the turn with ANY other card including the non-nut boat and take my chances. Yeah?Thx WM.

I guess it probably depends how you normally play in other situations... if you're frequently raising less than the pot, then I would admit it might make sense to raise less than the pot here to disguise the strength of your hand. However, if you are potting virtually all the time (I am more inclined to take that route, but it's not the only/best way to go) then raising less than the pot just screams strength. Also, I think if you're going to get called for $100 less than a PSB here then you'll get called for the full PSB too.Anyway, the flop is not that critical, it's the turn that I was mainly interested in giving my opinion on

[Acid_Knight 2]

After checking the turn, you've just screamed out loud about what your hand is.If he has the same hand, KQxx, I'd pot the turn as well. I like leading out and making him raise you. You're in a tough spot if he just calls and I think you gotta pay off on the river if no diamond comes becuase you'll be getting pretty good odds, although you'd be calling for a split.Hmm, now I don't know myself. Definitely fire at the turn though.

[predator06 0]

After checking the turn, you've just screamed out loud about what your hand is.Hmm, now I don't know myself. Definitely fire at the turn though.

I can't bet the turn. What else would he have called with? I know that he knew what I had, I just had to avoid the bad turn card. Tough to push another $600 into a pot that I have little doubt that I will win. Just a shitty hand that I will remember next time I am in this position.