22 replies to this topic

[gsxraddict]

I held J 10 , the flop came K Q Q

Giving me an open ended straight flush draw.

The guy went all in, I called; he showed a Q 4

The flop came 4 giving me my flush and his Boat

Then the river was a 9


Would anyone else of called here? I wasn't not getting 2-1 odds, but close.

[BudBundy]

i call but ISANL

[JMoney2681]

I held J 10 , the flop came K Q Q

Giving me an open ended straight flush draw.

The guy went all in, I called; he showed a Q 4

The flop came 4 giving me my flush and his Boat

Then the river was a 9
Would anyone else of called here? I wasn't not getting 2-1 odds, but close.

Is this a joke? We need waaaaaay more information to answer this question. Did you have any reads on vilian?

What were you playing, cash game, tourney, sng, heads up? Was it short handed/full ring?

What were the stack sizes of you and villian? How much was in the pot, how much did he bet?

[gsxraddict]

Is this a joke? We need waaaaaay more information to answer this question. Did you have any reads on vilian?

What were you playing, cash game, tourney, sng, heads up? Was it short handed/full ring?

What were the stack sizes of you and villian? How much was in the pot, how much did he bet?

It was a MTT 9 players per table, it was about the 15th hand of the tournament.

I raised preflop, he was the only caller. But whenever someone raised preflop before, he called and went all in on the flop to take the pot.

I raised 220 preflop to thin out the limpers, there was about 620 in the pot.

I had 1350, he had 1700.

[JMoney2681]

It was a MTT 9 players per table, it was about the 15th hand of the tournament.

I raised preflop, he was the only caller. But whenever someone raised preflop before, he called and went all in on the flop to take the pot.

I raised 220 preflop to thin out the limpers, there was about 620 in the pot.

I had 1350, he had 1700.

Ahh, much better, now we can actually come up with an answer...Ok now.

What were the blinds at during the 15th hand to make you want to raise an ungodly amount like 220 with J.10? So there was 620 in the pot preflop? Get the Hand History and convert it up, and then repost, this is too confusing. But based on the info you gave me, you raised too much, and probably committed too much this early on.

[Sluggo]

Why would you want to thin out limpers with a hand that plays well multi-way???? The call was good.

[gsxraddict]

I can't get the hand history; Im not sure why but I can't get it to pull up on this new site im playing at.
Anyway, the blinds were 25/50; I raised 4 times the BB because the entire table limped; and I figured I could take the pot there or go 2-3 way action.

I never limp in when im going to play, unless im BB.

[JMoney2681]

I can't get the hand history; Im not sure why but I can't get it to pull up on this new site im playing at.
Anyway, the blinds were 25/50; I raised 4 times the BB because the entire table limped; and I figured I could take the pot there or go 2-3 way action.

I never limp in when im going to play, unless im BB.

Ok, well here is your problem...

With a hand like 10/Js you don't want people out of the pot, you want to have a mutli-way flop. It is a very strong drawing hand, AND when you hit, you want to get paid off. Playing 10/J heads up against someone because you rasied it up to thin the field is just wrong. This isn't a heads up hand, this is a multi way hand, and there was nothing wrong with limping in, in this spot.

[gsxraddict]

Ok, well here is your problem...

With a hand like 10/Js you don't want people out of the pot, you want to have a mutli-way flop. It is a very strong drawing hand, AND when you hit, you want to get paid off. Playing 10/J heads up against someone because you rasied it up to thin the field is just wrong. This isn't a heads up hand, this is a multi way hand, and there was nothing wrong with limping in, in this spot.

you might be right, i'll consider that next time, thanks.

[JMoney2681]

you might be right, i'll consider that next time, thanks.

I am right, and you should definitely consider it next time.

[myxomatosized]

if you always raise with your heads up hands (big pairs, big aces) and limp with your multiway hands (small pairs, suited connectors), you will becometo easy to read. even in a low stakes online MTT... you need to mix it up. and JTs is a pretty good hand to mix it up with. although, with lost of limpersahead of you, it wouldn't be bad to limp along. it's pretty hard to get people to fold medium strength hands preflop in these online MTTs. but if you're first in, JTs is a fine raising hand.

[Actuary]

if you always raise with your heads up hands (big pairs, big aces) and limp with your multiway hands (small pairs, suited connectors), you will becometo easy to read. even in a low stakes online MTT... you need to mix it up.

no.
but everyone likes to pretend they play at a level where you need to.
Makes it more exciting.


and OP, bad call on the push.

[JMoney2681]

no.
but everyone likes to pretend they play at a level where you need to.
Makes it more exciting.
and OP, bad call on the push.

I guess it takes at least 3 guys to convince people. Thanks for helping out and fighting the war, lol. I was going to say what you said, but I figured I'd leave it for you or Zach.

[James D]

no.
but everyone likes to pretend they play at a level where you need to.
Makes it more exciting.
and OP, bad call on the push.

It is fine to raise, call, or fold with this hand, depending on your position on the table, chip stack and what action has happened before you have acted (if there has been any action, are they loose or tight players?)

After 16 hands, you should already have good reads on some of the more active players. This is important, when determining their possible range of calling hands. If you are not good with reads, or evaluating people's styles from early on, then this will be harder.

There is nothing wrong with raising at all if it it the right situation.. Say you limp, along with 5/6 others. all very passive - the flop comes J 7 3 rainbow... this looks like a fantastic flop for you, but without raising, the blinds could have 2 pair, someone else K J, Q J, AJ, 33 etc...

This could end up losing you more than it would if you had raised pre-flop, especially in a no limit tournament, in order to gain information of what possible hands they could have to be calling a raise (3/4 times the blind perhaps). Also, are they calling when they have position on you, if so then do not bet ridiculously if you do miss completely, as you may also lose a big pot here.

A raise to thin the field if you are going to play any hand can be a good idea, but a lot depends on previous action, the types of players on the table, chips, position etc etc. There is NOTHING wrong with that. If you adopt a tight/aggressive style in tournament play (a solid strategy), and do choose to get involved with a hand such as J10 suited, then the correct option usually, is to try to thin the field.

It is best to gain as much information and as much edge as you can, as early as possible in the hand. Do you prefer to realize that you are behind early, or later in the hand where you may have been sucked into a large pot, which ends up costing you a lot of chips?

Your raise was 4 and a half times the big blind, which is a little heavy, but you were also unlucky to have Q 4 call you!!! But he did give you the opportunity to get away from the hand by just going all in... he played this hand very strangely too, he called with a bad hand, hit trips, then just bet the hell out of it..

So, I understand why you didn't give him credit for the Q, as it would not usually be played this way, but you could and should have folded at this stage of the tournament.

[Actuary]

It is fine to raise, call, or fold with this hand, depending on your position (stacks, number left, reads...)

I concur

After 16 hands, you should already have good reads on some of the more active players. This is important, when determining their possible range of calling hands.

really? doubt 16 hands is enough.
That's less than 2 rotations.
Hardly enough for any reasonable distribution of hands. Yeah, if someone is raisng 13 out of 16 hands, wwe can lable him Aggrssive... but that's about all we can do

Say you limp, along with 5/6 others. all very passive - the flop comes J 7 3 rainbow... this looks like a fantastic flop for you, but without raising, the blinds could have 2 pair, someone else K J, Q J, AJ, 33 etc...

You're kidding?
You think Blinds or non-blinds fold KJ, AJ, 33 at those stakes? Heck, I don't fold 33 unless it's a sizable raise or I'm mid-short stacked. That's a central flaw in the discussion: At those stakes you aren't getting enough infomation to offset the benefits of just limping in with this hand. {Given we opend; however, I tend to like raisng..although from EP I'd fodl in tight games and limp in loose games and probably rarely play for a raise to open.}
But since you are talknig in general terms, I did there as well.

This could end up losing you more than it would if you had raised pre-flop, especially in a no limit tournament, in order to gain information of what possible hands they could have to be calling a raise (3/4 times the blind perhaps). Also, are they calling when they have position on you, if so then do not bet ridiculously if you do miss completely, as you may also lose a big pot here.

Again, we aren't gaining info that is credible against the field, most of the time.
And with a small pot and Top Pair, w can often pick the pot up on the flop; whereas a raised pot preflop will have more chasers and bluffers and be more diffcult to play OOP.

It is best to gain as much information and as much edge as you can, as early as possible in the hand. Do you prefer to realize that you are behind early, or later in the hand where you may have been sucked into a large pot, which ends up costing you a lot of chips?

I'd love to have them turn their cards over (figuratively) when I raise. And play all streets according to my reads. Won't happen. I try to control the pot size and yes, to some extent, put them on ranges, being aware whether or not is was raised preflop and the odds they were getting

So, I understand why you didn't give him credit for the Q, as it would not usually be played this way, but you could and should have folded at this stage of the tournament.

of course this does not "prove" anything I said.
It's is however typical and indicative of how raising AND RELYING on that raise to limit opponents is dangerous.

***********************

and, the call was good, except it was bad..because he lost.

[James D]

You're kidding?
You think Blinds or non-blinds fold KJ, AJ, 33 at those stakes? Heck, I don't fold 33 unless it's a sizable raise or I'm mid-short stacked. That's a central flaw in the discussion: At those stakes you aren't getting enough infomation to offset the benefits of just limping in with this hand. {Given we opend; however, I tend to like raisng..although from EP I'd fodl in tight games and limp in loose games and probably rarely play for a raise to open.}
But since you are talknig in general terms, I did there as well.

Maybe so, but at least if they have called your raise, you are able to give them credit for those hands.

Therefore, the information you have gained by your raise has been very useful, and you are more likely to be able to get away from just top pair, if you are in fact dominated.

If I played this hand without raising, I would find it more difficult to get away from the hand as I would have no pointers as to what sort of hand they may have.

I agree with the fold EP, tight, and limp in loose.

[mtdesmoines]

I held J 10 , the flop came K Q Q

Giving me an open ended straight flush draw.

The guy went all in, I called; he showed a Q 4

The flop came 4 giving me my flush and his Boat

Then the river was a 9
Would anyone else of called here? I wasn't not getting 2-1 odds, but close.

You called an all in on a paired board with a non-nut flush draw?

A while back, I saw quads, a boat, the nut flush, and top two pair all go all in in a live 1/2 game. Sometimes, it's just like ... wow, man.

[Actuary]

and OP, bad call on the push.

btw, I was joking

Getting the odds we are this is an eassy call.

Until we lose
Then it's a bad call.
So we lost
So it's a bad call.

[JMoney2681]

Maybe so, but at least if they have called your raise, you are able to give them credit for those hands.

Therefore, the information you have gained by your raise has been very useful, and you are more likely to be able to get away from just top pair, if you are in fact dominated.

If I played this hand without raising, I would find it more difficult to get away from the hand as I would have no pointers as to what sort of hand they may have.

I agree with the fold EP, tight, and limp in loose.

You usally don't havet to"get away" with J-10 suited, because the decisions usually are pretty easy. Either you flop a monster or you don't.. I'm not committing all my chips with top pair 10 kicker...J 10 is a multi way pot hand, not heads up. It is a very easily folded hand if you don't hit much, and if you hit top pair keep the pot small and obviously fold to a big bet.

[iggymcfly]

This is a pretty simple situation. We took a coinflip early in a tournament (the right decision) and we lost. It's standard. When OP doesn't even post the PF action, we don't need a 10 page discussion on what kind of circumstances we'd want to raise JTs in and what kind of circumstances we want to limp in with it.

The point is that against villian's likely range we're around 50%, (a boat doesn't overbet push here very often, if at all), and in a MTT, we want to take those kind of chances to give ourselves a chance to build up a big stack which at some point down the line (even if it's not until the final two tables) will give us a chance to steal some free chips.

Oh, and not to come off like a total d1ckhead (which I can tell I will here), but is there any way that we could make General Strat read-only for people with under 100 posts? It's not a place to post unconverted hands or advice about how "you should show bluffs because it's such a good feeling when you see the look on the other guy's face". This is where the regulars brag about their results (at the top of the page) and engage in discussion about long-term planning and general poker concepts (through the rest of the page).