flopped set with a flushed board

[balvord 0]

Wondering everyone's mindset in dealing with the following situation...You're dealt pocket fives UTG in a NL hold'em game. You limp. One decent size raise. Two callers (not including the blinds) plus yourself leaves you four handed to the flop, with you in first position.You flop a set, but the board also has three of a suit.How do you proceed from here?For me, I see two viable options, and I'm not sure which one I like better. Bet the PotPros1. You may drive out any low one card draws.2. If someone raises you, you can be pretty certain they have the flush, and proceed from there with that read.3. If no one raises, and the board pairs on the turn, it may be difficult for any one to put you on the full house (not sure if this is actually true).Cons1. If someone just calls you, it's very difficult to make a read. Do they have just the ace of the suit? Did they flop the flush and are slow playing?OrCheck and Call any Reasonable BetPros1. If someone did flop the flush, they may slowplay it and give you a free or cheap turn card.2. I can't think of any other pros, which is bad, because this is usually what I do.Cons1. You may be giving someone a free draw with their one card of the suit.2. Someone may make a big bet with just TPTK and drive you out.And another question, how do you react in this situation to a large bet on the flop (i.e. one that does not give you pot odds to call, assuming they have the flush). I tend to call because of the implied odds, but I don't understand implied odds well enough to know if I'm doing the right thing.Thoughts?

[vercingetorix 0]

that is so funny you posted that. I was playing in a small mtt yesterday on UB and the very thing happened to me. I had pocket fives and the flop came all clubs with the five. I was first to act and fired in a decent size bet(might have been pot sized, don't remember). I got RAISED! It was a big pot and at this point more than half my chips were in there. I just said f. it and pushed the rest in. I got called and the guy had the flush. When he reraised me I knew I was done. I could have folded but I don't think pot odds would have indicated folding. I actually bought into the tourney with those player points they give you so I didn't actually lay out any cash. Another of the age old dilemmas hit me yesterday also...when to fold kings?I found out. Same general situation. I was early to act and made a big bet and got raised. I reraised and the guy pushed all-in. I probably should have folded, but the pot was huge at this point and I just said F. it. I pushed the rest in, he turned over aces and that was it. Live and learn I guess. My gut was right in both situations in that I knew I was beat, but I couldn't let go of such a pot.

[PhishForChips 0]

You have to bet it.

[penne 0]

i agree, you have to put in a pot sized bet...at least to see where you stand. if youre raised be very cautious and be prepared to lay it down.

[Mills 0]

yes, betting is a must. Remember that even if your opponent has a made flush, your only a 2 to 1 dog off the flop.

[jarvis5150 0]

My question would be what the other cards were on the flop. was the 5 the lowest card and was there a possible straight.I think I'm making a pot-sized bet, but would likely lay it down if re-raised.But I've seen some crazy people betting hard to bluff people out of pots like this (same as when a pair flops).

[jarvis5150 0]

But with my luck, I'd flop the flush and the set would hang in there and catch the boat.

[elkang 0]

You have to bet a decent amount. You can win the pot there and need to find out where you stand. Half the pot or the entire pot based on pot size for me. You have to make a flush draw pay - make a small flush think about it - and you still have outs to the boat. Exceptions if you are in early position and/or there are a lot of people in the hand. Then you often find that after checking you have to decide to call a serious sized bet or all-in. Sometimes it is really easy to lay down top set. When the board is four to the flush you have to let it go unless your read is absolute.Also, things are different for tournament and a ring game. But, that's my general thought.Anyone who has played a lot has seen this a lot and been on all sides of the deck. It so much nicer when you have the made Ace high flush and the baby flush goes all in.

[njtitans16 0]

i dont know if a good size bet is always the best decision here. if youre plkaying against pretty decent people and you bet hard, they may just reraise you understanding that most people wouldnt bet hard a made flush there. with a few people in the pot you wanan extract as much as you can, especially with the A high. so it depends, but not always is a good size bet the best here. i think a weak lead of 2-4 bets may be ok because....a. if people just call, youre giving yourself good odds for if you hit your boatb. anyone witha high/nut made flush won't reraise you most likely if they have position hoping you'll bet into them. plus, a reraise with the made hand might drive away bets so theyll just smooth call and try to extract as much as they can from you.c. because of b, youre buying yourself a cheap turn instead of letting them bet more than you would want to call. sometimes, by betting, youre giving youreslf a cheaper card than if you just checked and let someone bet. (ie you bet 2bb and other just calls, in another situation if you just checked, they may bet 4bb but it might not have been a hand good enough to raise your 2bb)d. this may look like a milk bet from the other players point of view so they may be cautious when playing against you cause who would bluff with such a weak bet with such a strong board right?yea so those're my 2 cents.

[scweeber 0]

ehh, just like with any hypothetical poker situation i start typing and then a million different variables jump into my head... makes it hard to give good advice...that said, you have to bet it, at least a pot sized bet... if you're raised then you can usually narrow down your oppenents holdings to a low made flush or an A or K of the suit in their hand, usually with a pair taboot... depending on your chip position, position on the table and the size of the raise i'd usually call a descent sized raise and figure out my strategy on the turn card...

[Dhall901 0]

no doubt..if u flop a set with a suited board u have got to bet strong, pot sized at least..odds of a flopped flush are small..a HIGH flush..even smaller. Even it it's flopped turn might bring another and he'll think twice about it..gotta bet.

[Guest XXEddie]

no doubt..if u flop a set with a suited board u have got to bet strong, pot sized at least..odds of a flopped flush are small..a HIGH flush..even smaller. Even it it's flopped turn might bring another and he'll think twice about it..gotta bet.if the turn brings a fourth sapde..or heart or w/e, are you really gonna bet it if you get called on the flop?

[SapphireTiger 0]

I'd say...that its very hard to think you're going to win the hand if you havve something like... 9c 9d and the board is Jh Th 9h and a ton of people are in the hand. I think in this situation you need to find a reason to fold your hand... Just give it up, its such a dangerous flop.

[NormanHaupt 0]

I'd say...that its very hard to think you're going to win the hand if you havve something like... 9c 9d and the board is Jh Th 9h and a ton of people are in the hand.  I think in this situation you need to find a reason to fold your hand...  Just give it up, its such a dangerous flop.

Agreed.The problem with that is if you don't bet, anyone with a painted suit will. You're betting to drive them off a flush as much as your gaining information on if anyone has it.Assume anyone raising has nut flush draw or made it already. Assume anyone who calls has probably a flush draw, too. I don't imagine many people would stick around a pot with all that betting, without anything having to do with that flush.

[Diabolical 0]

i have to agree with weeber. Its a tough situation. I love to play no-limit live action, but i don't play live action online cause in this situation, i need to read the players. I need to see there reaction. There could be someone slowplayin the nut flush, or there could be someone betting hard on the nut flush draw, or there could be someone with the same delema as you and has something like two pair.i usually slowplay trips, but in this situation, maybe i would bet the standard small raise that the table usually bets and look for a reaction. Now, there wondering if i'm slowplayin the nut flush and i'll look to see some defensive postures, plus overly aggressive postures like takin a big swigg of beer after there bet or something like that. also, if they jus call my small bet, i would check the turn to see if someone gets impatient and exposes there monster hand. real tough situation. I know you guys are talkin about online play, but i thought you may want to know what goes through the mind of a player at a face to face game.I LOVE NO-LIMIT 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[SabaAba 0]

Don't bet the pot, that's too much chips and not the best option. If you bet a small enough bet, like 4 or 5 times the BB, you are making sure that if people want to bluff, they will need to bluff big and then you can get off your hand, not worth it. I like checking here, because the nut flush will definately slow play it, there is no reason to think otherwise. If you lead out betting, the nut flush will most likely raise thinking you also have a flush and he will get paid off. You still have 7 outs most likely and 10 outs on the river.COnclusion, checking is best here. You are looking to either make a boat or get out the hand. That's what I think anyway :-)

[Diabolical 0]

i concure saba 8) :wink: :wink:

[MrNiceGuy 0]

This is probably the worst hand of poker I've ever played - this came up online in a $15 MTT (about 200 players) a couple of months ago. I hadn't been playing poker for very long - I knew how to play tight but I also played way too weak and cautiously. But I've always remembered this hand, because it was horrible. The blinds were 75/150, and I had roughly 2000 chips, which was somewhere around half the average stack at that point. I picked up AA in the SB. Everyone folded to the button, who limped (he had about 5000 chips). I raised it to 300 (this was a pretty weak raise, I know), the BB folded, and the button called. The flop came Axx, all clubs. Then I made my worst mistake - somewhat worried about the chance that he might have a flush, I bet out only 150 into the 700 chip pot. He called behind me, and the turn was a disaster, another small club! Now I was really worried, and I again made a weak bet of 150. He pushed all-in behind me, and I decided I couldn't risk a call, so I folded. He showed a stone bluff - QhTh.I think the best play I could've made would've been a nearly pot-sized bet on the flop. If he would've reraised all-in, then I can fold assuming he has either the flush or at worst a high club. Although really in this case, given my short stack, if I had raised the flop more and he had come over the top, I should probably call and hope the board pairs, because the pot odds would then be nearly right even if he has a made flush, and he could be semi-bluffing or even totally bluffing.So in general, for deep stacks I agree with elkang - I think a raise somewhere between half the pot and the whole pot would be the right play with a set and a suited flop. If you bet toward half the pot, you have a cheaper fold if you face a big raise, but you may be giving a flush draw the right price to call or semibluff you off your hand. Of course, if he calls and you fill up on the turn, you might be able to trap him into semibluffing at the paired board. If you bet the whole pot, you're better protected against draws, but you might be read exactly that way, and you'll lose more to a made flush or an overset.Just my two cents, I'm no expert (see first paragraph).

[DCWildcat 0]

Thusfar, I think y'all have missed the most important variable in the situation: the quality of play! At a low stakes game, people will stay in regardless of pot/implied odds just holding 1 card of the suit. At higher stakes, they'll be more inclined to let go of those hands. Also remember, the chance of someone flopping a flush is very low, and even if they do, you're still only a 2 to 1 dog with the trips.

[DCWildcat 0]

I'd say...that its very hard to think you're going to win the hand if you havve something like... 9c 9d and the board is Jh Th 9h and a ton of people are in the hand.  I think in this situation you need to find a reason to fold your hand...  Just give it up, its such a dangerous flop.

I agree, but that's a totally different situation (that may have been what you tried to bring up).With 5's, chances are you're fine, much less dangerous than the aforementioned 99's with a high straight draw on the board.

[tentenoffsuit 0]

in general i play all my sets fast on the flop... i have a reputation as being very agressive... so i fast play my sets and try to get action on them, or take the pot down. this being said, i would make my usual bet at this pot. here's the thing most people miss:if you have AsTs and the flop comes Ks8h2S most of us are going to take a chance at hitting that nut flush at a decent price, we may even lead at the pot with a semi-bluff. With your flush you have 9 outs and a 35% chance of hitting it in the last two cards. If it doesn't hit on the turn, you have a 19.6% chance of hitting it on the river. Most of us are willing to take the chance to hit that nut flush if the board isn't paired... ect. ect.now lets say you have 5h5c and the flop comes 5d8dJd. against a made flush you still have 7 outs with two to come (27.8%). if the turn doesn't pair the board, you pick up three additional outs giving you 10 outs with one to come (21.7%). Not a real big difference there. People fail to realize how much the board actually pairs when they play. It happens a lot.Ever since I figured this out, i always play my sets to see all 5 cards in cash games. A little more cautious in tourneys where I can't re-buy. But in a cash game, i'll take my chances. Hope that math helps a little....

[jonnyz 0]

Pot size bet on the flop should let you know where you are. It s tricky though thats why you shouldnt play 55 utg and definately not if there has been a good size raise behind you.

[No1Special 0]

I was in that situation in a cash game on UB. 1 raise from a very tight player in first position so i just smooth called his raise pre-flop. I flopped 3 aces with [AcAs] in the whole board came flushed diamonds. Because I knew I had the best hand I thought the only way the tight player would call is if he had a flush ( which I thought was out of the question).I moved all-in and he called had QQ with the Qd, river came another diamond. I dont know if this helps you but I think its best to get the money in with the best hand and hope that you dont get outdrawn.

[Diabolical 0]

I have a comment on what Mrniceguy wrote. I would go all in on the flop in your situation. Being in a tourney and playing No-limit Live are two different animals. If i had pocket aces and tripped with a total flush board, i'm goin all in!!! No doubt. The key in a tourney is to accumulate chips and watch the blinds as they go up. You said you were shortstacked and this was your make it or break it hand. In a cash game, the blinds never go up and you have to worry about your roll more then one particular hand. :wink:

[TucsonMonster 0]

Not only is the quality important but i believe that the statistics itself is the most defining point. (Dont quote me on this), but i believe that the chances of flopping a flush is 112:1. this should give you a good sense of what is going on. In a low limit game, i wouldnt be suprised if a pot sized bet gets raised by someone on the nut flush draw (or a high suited card.) Just thought i would throw that out there.