47 replies to this topic

[Shimmering Wang]

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and it finally reached a head this morning. I don't know why. I think it's because I'm grumpy as fuck. I had to write about it, so I posted it in my blog. Nobody ever goes there, and I wanted to get a little discussion going.

Reproduced from a list of "Things Wang Hates."

7) Joe Morgan. He knows nothing about the realities of baseball. Instead of relying on things like evidence, he "trusts his gut" and refuses to believe that things like "heart," "clutch hitting," and "born winners" don't exist. Derek Jeter's not the best player ever because he's somehow able to summon some magical ability to impose his will upon the game in important situations. He's a great player because he's a great player, is always hitting with men on base, and sees great pitches in every at bat because he's consistently played with the greatest offensive lineups in the history of the game. Derek Jeter has all those rings because he plays on the Yankees, not because his mere presence in the lineup automatically gives his teammates +3 power, +2 hand-eye-concentration, and +6 magic.

Alex Rodgriguez is not a disappointing player because- despite his superior skill set- he somehow gets nervous and chokes in big situations. He's an incredible player because he hit 35 homeruns, drove in 120 runs, and got on base almost 40% of the time this year, coming off an AL MVP season. Actually, he's a better player than Jeter because he was a consistently better shortstop and has put up better offensive numbers across the board throughout their entire careers. Derek Jeter is not a better player because his teams have won more World Series than Alex Rodgriguez's. Derek Jeter's teams have won more championships because his team spends 200+million dollars a year, and can purchase the contract of one of the best hitters in baseball at the trading deadline.

So, Mr. Morgan, take a logic class, learn what the word "fallacy" means, and then- in a fit of devastating personal revelation- put your head in the microwave in my fridge, go back in time, and save us all the misery by moving to South America and raising alpaca.

8) The blatant pandering of the sports media to big markets. Every single poll on cnnsi.com or espn.com has something to do with- directly or indirectly- New York sports. "Who is the best player in baseball? (a) Derek Jeter- Yankees (B) Jason Giambi- Yankees (c) Carlos Delgado- Mets (d) Carlos Beltran- Mets (e) Jose Reyes- Mets

I understand the realities, I just want you to say it. Just say it. "We're only doing this because more people live in New York than anywhere else. That's why we're blatantly undercovering every other market. Except, maybe Los Angeles, even though they always fucking suck."

Oh, and there's a 0% chance a Notre Dame team with 2 losses that's probably the 20th best team in college football won't make a BCS bowl. I understand it. I really do. Just say it. "Everybody loves Notre Dame, so the sponsors demand we give them an at-large big to boost ratings. We're hacks, and don't give a **** about the integrity of the sport." Just say it. I blame my friend Chris on this one. He's been talking about it for the last 3 months nonstop, and I can't stop thinking about it.

9) A corollary to (8), the national sports media jumps on every good white player in every sport and dedicates an inordinate amount of time to discussing his performance. "Zbikowski! Samardzija!" Hey, guess what? Jeff Samardzija isn't even Notre Dame's NUMBER ONE WIDERECEIVER! McKnight is. McKnight is better, and lines up as the #1 in almost every formation. But he's blacker, too, so nobody even cares. Everbody talks about Tom Zbikowski's boxing career, and one writer for cnnsi called it the best sports story of the year. I guarantee there's a black guy playing basketball or football for a major college program that is a much more talented amateur or semi-professional boxer. But nobody gives a fuck. Because he's black. Again, I SO get it. Just say it. "We have to cover these white athletes because there are more white people in America than black people. White people make up a much larger portion of our viewing audience and have more money to spend. White people like white people more than they like black people, and are insecure about the generally superior performance of black athletes compared to white athletes, so we have to stroke the collective egos of our audience by placing undeserving white athletes on a pedestal. Boy, do we hate Allen Iverson and love Kirk Hinrich!"

Once again, most of this can be directly attributed to the influence of my roommate, Chris, who has been pointing these things out for the last few months ad nauseum.



Thoughts?

[SBriand]

You are so right on about Joe Morgan. I was soo bloody pissed last night when I sat down to watch the Tigers/Yanks game and saw him on there. My wife despises him as well. Then to top it off he calls our rookie pitcher Justin Verlander, Jason Verlander, twice. They tout him as some huge baseball great who has all the knowledge in the world about "his" game but everytime I see him cover a game he is so way off the mark sometimes it is not even funny. Plus I hate nothing more that sportscasters who cannot remain objective.

We have a guy that does our Hockey Color Commentary for the Wings, Mickey Redmond. Ex-Wing himself. He can be pretty funny but I hate watching games with him because the Wings can do no wrong. Maltby could take his stick and whip it into somenes face 3 times and get penalized and Mickey will be pissy and mad about the "bad call" for 5 minutes. I hate that. I want to hear about the game, not some slappy.

[LongLiveYorke]

8) The blatant pandering of the sports media to big markets. Every single poll on cnnsi.com or espn.com has something to do with- directly or indirectly- New York sports. "Who is the best player in baseball? (a) Derek Jeter- Yankees ( Jason Giambi- Yankees (c) Carlos Delgado- Mets (d) Carlos Beltran- Mets (e) Jose Reyes- Mets

I understand the realities, I just want you to say it. Just say it. "We're only doing this because more people live in New York than anywhere else. That's why we're blatantly undercovering every other market. Except, maybe Los Angeles, even though they always fucking suck."

Wait........

People play baseball in places other than New York?

How do they root for the Yankess from so far away?

[mrdannyg]

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and it finally reached a head this morning. I don't know why. I think it's because I'm grumpy as fuck. I had to write about it, so I posted it in my blog. Nobody ever goes there, and I wanted to get a little discussion going.

Reproduced from a list of "Things Wang Hates."

7) Joe Morgan. He knows nothing about the realities of baseball. Instead of relying on things like evidence, he "trusts his gut" and refuses to believe that things like "heart," "clutch hitting," and "born winners" don't exist. Derek Jeter's not the best player ever because he's somehow able to summon some magical ability to impose his will upon the game in important situations. He's a great player because he's a great player, is always hitting with men on base, and sees great pitches in every at bat because he's consistently played with the greatest offensive lineups in the history of the game. Derek Jeter has all those rings because he plays on the Yankees, not because his mere presence in the lineup automatically gives his teammates +3 power, +2 hand-eye-concentration, and +6 magic.

Alex Rodgriguez is not a disappointing player because- despite his superior skill set- he somehow gets nervous and chokes in big situations. He's an incredible player because he hit 35 homeruns, drove in 120 runs, and got on base almost 40% of the time this year, coming off an AL MVP season. Actually, he's a better player than Jeter because he was a consistently better shortstop and has put up better offensive numbers across the board throughout their entire careers. Derek Jeter is not a better player because his teams have won more World Series than Alex Rodgriguez's. Derek Jeter's teams have won more championships because his team spends 200+million dollars a year, and can purchase the contract of one of the best hitters in baseball at the trading deadline.

So, Mr. Morgan, take a logic class, learn what the word "fallacy" means, and then- in a fit of devastating personal revelation- put your head in the microwave in my fridge, go back in time, and save us all the misery by moving to South America and raising alpaca.

8) The blatant pandering of the sports media to big markets. Every single poll on cnnsi.com or espn.com has something to do with- directly or indirectly- New York sports. "Who is the best player in baseball? (a) Derek Jeter- Yankees ( Jason Giambi- Yankees (c) Carlos Delgado- Mets (d) Carlos Beltran- Mets (e) Jose Reyes- Mets

I understand the realities, I just want you to say it. Just say it. "We're only doing this because more people live in New York than anywhere else. That's why we're blatantly undercovering every other market. Except, maybe Los Angeles, even though they always fucking suck."

Oh, and there's a 0% chance a Notre Dame team with 2 losses that's probably the 20th best team in college football won't make a BCS bowl. I understand it. I really do. Just say it. "Everybody loves Notre Dame, so the sponsors demand we give them an at-large big to boost ratings. We're hacks, and don't give a **** about the integrity of the sport." Just say it. I blame my friend Chris on this one. He's been talking about it for the last 3 months nonstop, and I can't stop thinking about it.

9) A corollary to (8), the national sports media jumps on every good white player in every sport and dedicates an inordinate amount of time to discussing his performance. "Zbikowski! Samardzija!" Hey, guess what? Jeff Samardzija isn't even Notre Dame's NUMBER ONE WIDERECEIVER! McKnight is. McKnight is better, and lines up as the #1 in almost every formation. But he's blacker, too, so nobody even cares. Everbody talks about Tom Zbikowski's boxing career, and one writer for cnnsi called it the best sports story of the year. I guarantee there's a black guy playing basketball or football for a major college program that is a much more talented amateur or semi-professional boxer. But nobody gives a fuck. Because he's black. Again, I SO get it. Just say it. "We have to cover these white athletes because there are more white people in America than black people. White people make up a much larger portion of our viewing audience and have more money to spend. White people like white people more than they like black people, and are insecure about the generally superior performance of black athletes compared to white athletes, so we have to stroke the collective egos of our audience by placing undeserving white athletes on a pedestal. Boy, do we hate Allen Iverson and love Kirk Hinrich!"

Once again, most of this can be directly attributed to the influence of my roommate, Chris, who has been pointing these things out for the last few months ad nauseum.
Thoughts?

don't be racist, we call them "darker's."
as for the second point, why do you think that? racist.

but yes, joe morgan should be quartered.

[JoeyJoJo]

7) Joe Morgan. He knows nothing about the realities of baseball. Instead of relying on things like evidence, he "trusts his gut" and refuses to believe that things like "heart," "clutch hitting," and "born winners" don't exist. Derek Jeter's not the best player ever because he's somehow able to summon some magical ability to impose his will upon the game in important situations. He's a great player because he's a great player, is always hitting with men on base, and sees great pitches in every at bat because he's consistently played with the greatest offensive lineups in the history of the game. Derek Jeter has all those rings because he plays on the Yankees, not because his mere presence in the lineup automatically gives his teammates +3 power, +2 hand-eye-concentration, and +6 magic.

Alex Rodgriguez is not a disappointing player because- despite his superior skill set- he somehow gets nervous and chokes in big situations. He's an incredible player because he hit 35 homeruns, drove in 120 runs, and got on base almost 40% of the time this year, coming off an AL MVP season. Actually, he's a better player than Jeter because he was a consistently better shortstop and has put up better offensive numbers across the board throughout their entire careers. Derek Jeter is not a better player because his teams have won more World Series than Alex Rodgriguez's. Derek Jeter's teams have won more championships because his team spends 200+million dollars a year, and can purchase the contract of one of the best hitters in baseball at the trading deadline.

So, Mr. Morgan, take a logic class, learn what the word "fallacy" means, and then- in a fit of devastating personal revelation- put your head in the microwave in my fridge, go back in time, and save us all the misery by moving to South America and raising alpaca.

In most professions you need to continually educate yourself in your field if you want to stay/become successful. In some professions it is required to maintain your license to work in your field. Is it too much to ask that a national broadcaster try to stay on top of the current developments in the sport?

I hate that Joe Morgan refuses to acknowledge any of the (sometimes groundbreaking) statistical work that is being done by very intelligent people. Why is OK to just say, "I mean, I played baseball, so I know what's going on in the field. I mean, numbers can't tell you what's in a guy's heart"?

I realize that the middle of a game isn't the best place to have a discourse on VORP or ERA+, but there are ways to work the knowledge gained by knowing these stats into the game.

And how can Joe Morgan continually discredit Moneyball when he hasn't even read the book? How long did he continue to say that Billy Beane was the author of the book, even when it was repeatedly pointed out to him that he was not?

There is a place for former ballplayers as announcers because they do know certain things about the game, but that's not enough. I would like to see announcers actually take the time to learn the game and not just be talking heads. I don't want a fan's perspective; I just want someone who really knows the game.

[BigDMcGee]

Howard Cossell Called it the "jocktocracy" that former jocks got broadcasting jobs they didn't deserve just because they are jocks.. thre are some former players/coachs that are really golden as color comentary. BUt morgan is a f reaking albatross.

[Shimmering Wang]

There is a place for former ballplayers as announcers because they do know certain things about the game, but that's not enough. I would like to see announcers actually take the time to learn the game and not just be talking heads. I don't want a fan's perspective; I just want someone who really knows the game.

Joe Morgan is really just my whipping boy, a "sports expert" who knows embarrassingly little about the sport he claims to understand.

Football (moreso the NFL, especially because college football puts Kirk Herbstreit on the air as much as possible, and he's a consummate professional with a WORLD of knowledge) has the same problems. I mean, Mark May? Schlereth? These guys don't know a damned thing about the NFL.

Question: Who would you rather have on your team? Peyton Manning or Tom Brady?

TypicalAnswer from former player talking head type: "Tom Brady, because he's won 3 Super Bowls. The guy's a born winner. Peyton Manning just can't seem to get over the hump. This is because Tom Brady is simply better at willing his team to victory, and Peyton Manning has no heart. When Tom Brady is on the field, all offensive players on the Patriots are awarded a bonus of +3 speed, +2 intelligence, and +4 luck. This is objective fact."

CorrectAnswer: "Peyton Manning, because he is simply the greatest quarterback ever to play the game. Tom Brady is one of the best quarterbacks in football, and is, quite deservedly, a shoe-in for the hall-of-fame, but Peyton Manning is THE BEST QUARTERBACK EVER. He's more physically gifted than Brady (who, it happens, is no slouch), and nobody works harder week-to-week at breaking down defenses than Peyton Manning. The Patriots have won more Super Bowls because they are run by the best and most effective front-office in sports. They consistently sign undervalued free-agents, draft superbly, and don't fall into the trap of overpaying veterans."

TypicalRebuttal from former player talking head type: "How many Super Bowls has Brady won? 3. How many has Manning won? Zero. Quod Erat Demonstratum. I don't even know what that means, because I never took the time to learn how to formulate a valid argument, and still equate 'winning' with the mythical quality of 'being a winner.' If I knew anything, I'd realize that the latin phrase I'm looking for is actually 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc.' I am a butthead."

I'd love for people to come up with more fun examples of this type of thinking. Or anything in the same vein.

Wang

[JoeyJoJo]

I'd love for people to come up with more fun examples of this type of thinking. Or anything in the same vein.

Question: Were the Braves of the last 14 years the standard for success or a colossal failure?

Typical answer: "Failure. Nobody remembers who finishes second. They have only won one world championship over that time even with all of that talent. The bottom line is that when it mattered most, they choked."

Correct answer: "Unparalleled success. Baseball is a sport that is best measured over the long-term. 162 games might not even be enough to determine who was the best team, so how can we say that a 5 or 7-game series is a true measure of a team? The fact is that anything can happen in a short series and simply making the playoffs for 14 years in a row is a tremendous achievement."

Other questions: Wilt vs. Russell. Michael Vick?

[Piddle Duck]

Ugh, Micheal Vick.

Everyone who knows anything about sports (sw) knows that being a QB in the NFL means you have to pass for 300 yards a game and throw 30+ TD's. Screw all that running 110 yrds a game.

[Shimmering Wang]

Other questions: Wilt vs. Russell. Michael Vick?

Great. I love it!

Answer: "Bill Russell. He possesses all the intangibles necessary for building a championship team! His will to win was unparalleled!"

Correct Answer: "Wilt Chamberlain is the most dominating athlete of all time, and singlehandedly dominated every game he ever played. Oh, and Bill Russell is kind of a jerk. Plus, I bet Wilt boned his wife. Which is awesome."

Keep them coming. I also enjoy comparisons between the eras.

Johnny Unitas! Best QB ever!

No, sorry. Johnny Unitas wouldn't start in the NFL today over that guy the Patriots drafted who never started a game at USC, because almost every athlete today is better than any athlete who played his particular sport more than 20 years ago.

Wang

[Ron_Mexico]

I'm not nearly as "wordy" or "smart" as you guys, but if you don't factor intangibles into the equation, you aren't doing sports justice.

I have no opinion on Joe Morgan but to compare Jeter to ARod and say Jeter was good because he played on the Yanks or Russell was lucky because he played on the Celts is not taking into account the entire picture. They were able to bring something to the table that you can't quantify with a stat.

If so, what is the stat that allows Big Papi to have more game winning hits than almost the rest of the league a year and a half period? Opportunity? Maybe. Luck? Maybe. Or that something special that makes him loosen up and come through in the clutch?


Stats tell a story, sure, but they certainly don't tell the complete story, and I do believe to be fact, that stats can always be presented in a manner that will allow you to argue both sides of the argument.

Like I said, I don't know, but I know it just isn't based on talent alone.

[mrdannyg]

If so, what is the stat that allows Big Papi to have more game winning hits than almost the rest of the league a year and a half period? Opportunity? Maybe. Luck? Maybe. Or that something special that makes him loosen up and come through in the clutch?

boo. firstly, it is mostly opportunity, and the fact that he is otherwise an excellent hitter.

When I see people with good 'clutch' numbers (and there are stats to show this), i figure there are two possibilities.
1 - Short-term variation
2 - They are better hitters in pressure situations. To me, that is not complimentary, but the opposite. It means they aren't trying their hardest when it isn't a pressure situation.

If Ortiz can hit .400 in pressure situations, why the hell isn't he always hitting .400?

[mk]

Joe Morgan 5 seconds ago:

"Well, Jeter plays the game to win..."

NO ONE ELSE PLAYS THE GAME TO WIN, THEY ONLY PLAY FOR MONEY.

[JoeyJoJo]

If so, what is the stat that allows Big Papi to have more game winning hits than almost the rest of the league a year and a half period? Opportunity? Maybe. Luck? Maybe. Or that something special that makes him loosen up and come through in the clutch?

The problem with clutch stats, especially in baseball, is that there just isn't a big enough sample size to say whether you are seeing something intangible or whether it's just random. Players just don't come up with the game on the line enough times to determine that.

If you look at any player's career and compare late inning, close game at-bats to all at-bats, you will find that a .300 career hitter is also a .300 hitter in late inning, close game situations. The problem is, you don't know that until his career is over and that's not helping an announcer or writer. So a player does well for a couple years in those situations and he gets labelled "clutch" and it sticks. It makes for a better story to say certain players have that magical quality.

Did you know Alex Rodriguez actually has better career postseason numbers than Derek Jeter?

Barry Bonds was labelled a choker for most of his career and then he had one of the greatest postseason runs ever. Does the juice also make you loosen up and become clutch?

Big Papi has more game winning hits because he does have more opportunities and because he is one of the best hitters in the game, regardless of the situation.

[No_Neck]

Call me racist if you wish, but Deion Sanders makes me want to stab myself in the face with a pen.

[Ron_Mexico]

Did you know Alex Rodriguez actually has better career postseason numbers than Derek Jeter?

You obviously didn't watch him in the 2004 Red Sox series or the 2005 Angels series.



Seriously, I agree for the most part with you all, but I do think certain players rise to the occasion and some players shrink in the spotlight.

Just my opinion.

Call me racist if you wish, but Deion Sanders makes me want to stab myself in the face with a pen.

racist


I much prefer Mr Marble Mouth himself, Shannon Sharpe

[mrdannyg]

Seriously, I agree for the most part with you all, but I do think certain players rise to the occasion and some players shrink in the spotlight.

there are definitely hitters that become worse in the clutch, due to nerves, etc. lots of them.

Joe Morgan 5 seconds ago:

"Well, Jeter plays the game to win..."

NO ONE ELSE PLAYS THE GAME TO WIN, THEY ONLY PLAY FOR MONEY.

i actually do kind of agree with this. some guys play to win, and some guys play for stats/money. sometimes those two things diverge.

jeter (seems) to play to win. i respect that.

[Shimmering Wang]

there are definitely hitters that become worse in the clutch, due to nerves, etc. lots of them.
i actually do kind of agree with this. some guys play to win, and some guys play for stats/money. sometimes those two things diverge.

jeter (seems) to play to win. i respect that.

I hate you.

Professional athletes don't get so nervous that big spots turn them into 12 year old girls.

Even if you're playing to boost your own statistics, 99.9% of the time this goal in baseball aligns perfectly with a desire to win.

Wang

PS- Joe Morgan is so so so so so stupid. Did anyone hear his little monologue about statistics when Miller corrected him in the top of the first?

[JoeyJoJo]

PS- Joe Morgan is so so so so so stupid. Did anyone hear his little monologue about statistics when Miller corrected him in the top of the first?

From the Sports Guy's running diary during the Dodgers-Mets game yesterday:

1:04 -- Today's announcers: Gary Thorne, Steve Phillips and Joe Morgan, who will leave after the game with a police escort so he can announce Game 2 of tonight's Yankee series. If you ask me, that's a lot of Joe Morgan. I mean, a LOT of Joe Morgan. But you didn't ask me.

2:04 -- Actual quote from Joe Morgan: "I always thought Grady Little did a great job, even with Boston, with the exception of the Pedro incident." That's like saying, "I always thought Britney Spears had pretty good taste in men, with the exception of K-Fed."

2:19 -- Morgan: "The most important inning in a game is the inning after you take the lead." You know what? I'm still going with the ninth inning is the most important inning of the game. Thanks, though.

2:29 -- Chad Bradford gets a Nomar grounder to end the fifth. This ex-Red Sox thing isn't even funny anymore. Meanwhile, Joe Morgan says goodbye to Thorne and Phillips -- he's headed to Yankee Stadium for tonight's game. I wait for Joe to point out, "If you have a police escort, that means you get to Yankee Stadium faster" or "the big difference between Yankee Stadium and Shea Stadium is that the Yankees play in Yankee Stadium." Doesn't happen.

3:41 -- JD Drew kicks off the eighth with a lazy flyball out off Aaron Heilman. We might need to get him a venti soy latte or something. Meanwhile, Karl Ravech breaks into the broadcast to tell us that Joe Morgan has, indeed, arrived at Yankee Stadium. Dammit!

(Um ... I mean ... what a relief!)

[Ron_Mexico]

I hate you.

Professional athletes don't get so nervous that big spots turn them into 12 year old girls.

there is a first for everything and here it is

You're wrong about this.

take a qb for instance, some can take the speed of the game, stand in the pocket, absorb the shots, others get happy feet and wilt under the pressure? What stat figures that out?